racinghia50 Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Nick and anyone else willing to listen to my gripe,I attended the races at Thunderhill Raceway sat. nite,to watch the races and see the class that I race in also,the Pro Sedans. I once again want to voice my irritation about the rule that sends all parties involved in a caution to the back of the pack.I watched from turn four as the race began and Bill Labarge lost a tire and this led to a great race for the lead between Jack Dishman and Donnie Moore,Donnie was driving a terrific race and gaining on Dishman when from the back of the pack,Randy Lee made his way to the back of Donnie Moore and I watched him hit Donnie from behind in an attempt to gain position,causing Donnie to spin and bringing out the yellow,Randy did not try to go to the outside to pass, it was a direct hit. I am sick of this rule,it robbed Donnie of any chance he had to win the race,This rule basically tells me that if you dont want someone to win just give them a hit so they have to go to the rear..........I would like to here some feedback on this as I think a petition to change this rule is in order. Randy Larsen #50 Texas Pro Sedans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Randy where were you a couple of months ago when this discussion came up? I agree w/you man, but Nick's feelings are strong on this subject. Just sell that ghia and come to THR. They've been making some good judgement calls this season. Chase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Randy, Your opinion is noted and appreciated. If we all had the same perspective on things it would be a pretty dull world. You asked for my feedback, so here it is: 1) Randy went to the back along with Donnie, thus Randy didn't gain anything by taking Donnie out except whatever personal satisfaction (if any) he recieved from the incident. Of course, if his only motive was to take Donnie out no matter what, then he would have done the same thing no matter what rules were in effect. 2) TPS officials (nor any other race officials, including those with instant replay) do not have a good way of telling who is a fault in the vast majority of racing incidents. When someone comes up with a machine or device that tells us who's at fault in a racing incident I will adopt the rules change you suggest. In the meantime, however, all involved go to the back. 3) What if Donnie had actually pulled a brake check on Randy? I'm not saying he did. I'm just saying what if. From the stands how can you honestly tell the difference? Maybe in this case it was pretty obvious. Maybe from Randy Lee's perspective it wasn't quite so obvious. Just for the sake of arguement let's say that TPS was using the "only those at fault go to the back" rule last Saturday. Randy, obviously faster than Donnie, comes storming up on Donnie. Donnie waits until the timing is just right and applies the brakes just enough to get Randy to make contact, even though Randy had no intention whatsoever of taking Donnie out, and around goes Donnie. Those of us not driving those two cars (everyone except Donnie and Randy) think we know what happened. The officials saw the same thing so they rule that Randy punted Donnie and they send Randy to the back even though they should have sent Donnie to the back for pulling a brake check. While I honestly don't think it happened that way, it could have. Would that have been "fair?" 4) You refer to the incident between Donnie and Bill LaBarge at the beginning of the race. You seem pretty sure what happened there too. I quote you here, "I watched from turn four as the race began and Bill Labarge lost a tire." Well, guess what. It didn't happen like. In this case both of the drivers involved told me the same story. Bill didn't want to give up his line at the start and Donnie didn't want to give up his line and they banged trying to get to the same spot at the same time. Of course, both blamed the other for moving up or coming down, but that incident was not caused by Bill's tire going down. That tire was punctured as a result of the contact with Donnie. This just another example in the same race we are discussing that points out that for most racing incidents it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell what really happened out there unless you are one of the drivers actually involved. In this case, no caution period resulted from the contact. But what if it had? Send Donnie to the back? Send Bill to the back? Send no one? Send em both? Even looking at the tape afterwards it was really difficult to tell whether one or the other was actually at fault. 5) Go ahead, Randy, get a petition going. It's America after all. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy lee Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 i couldn't have said it better myself nick. watching and judging from the stands can be very deceiving(even for an expericenced driver) and often times i believe we let our "personal"feelings sway us. it just my opinion but here goes....if those petitioners would make the best of the rules instead of trying to change them they may better themselves. randy no offense intended but do you still race with us? we have sure missed you and so has our car count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinghia50 Posted August 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Nick,first of all I did see the contact between Bill and Donnie in the first turn that caused Bill's tire to go flat,but that means nothing towards this rule that has me wound up,I want a change that allows officials to make the call so that the ones not causing the incident get to resume there attempt to win ,because that chance doesnt come often...........Randy Lee,I have no hard feelings towards anyone or is any offense taken,I am just tired of a rule that isnt used in other classes,If I run into someone and take them out,I should be sent to the back,and if they brake check me then I should have had better control of my car,I WANT A RULING IN THESE MATTERS,it seems that it is an easy way for officials not to have to deal with making a call.......Again no offense to anyone but I will never be satisfied with this rule. And I think that it is time the (bread and butter) of racing,(the drivers) have a sayso. Arent we the ones that make racing possible??? I will be back,hopefully at the next race to compete and Randy you have done some incredible things with your car,as in living with the restrictions and rules, so my hat is off to you,Its the rule Im after,and dont you think it would be a better class if everyone ran the same carburetor, I dont care which one just everyone the same,instead of all this restrictor plate mess...............Randy Larsen #50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Randy Larsen, Read the TPS rules, Randy. Every car in TPS has the option to run the same carb. It's a 38mm x 38mm Weber. The Fords, the Chevys the VWs, the BMWs, the Bugs, the Ghias, the Toyotas, the Datsuns, the Hondas... every car in TPS! Nobody has to run a restrictor plate if they don't want to. They can run the 38mm x 38mm Weber if they so choose. We are simply allowing teams that formerly were authorized the Holley 500 to put on the restrictor plate to save them the expense of buying the Weber if that's their choice. Doesn't sound like a "restrictor plate mess" to me. Sounds more like a race organization bending over backwards to accomodate its members! By the way, how would you have called that turn 4 contact between LaBarge and Moore if the race had gone yellow? Put your official's hat on and make the judgement call. Who was at fault and thus sent to the back? Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 I wasnt at that particular race and for the most part I have only been to races at SAS but as long as I remember the classes at SAS and for that matter of NASCAR have everyone that is involved goto the back...A prime example is lets say you have 3 cars a b and c , Car a gets loose and gets sideways car b slows and c slams into the back of b causing b and c to spin do you then send a back even though no one touched him other than the fact that he slowed the field down or do you give em all thier spots back... Using your method in NASCAR Sterling Marlin should have been given his spot back and Kurt Busch sent to the back... Now I know NASCAR even has a different view on this thing too because Busch wasnt sent to the back either becasue he should have gone to the back.... Just my .02 cents and I hope to see you racing in TPS soon with that Gia that car is always fast. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerjim2 Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Randy L.,all the races at SAS use this same all involved rule ,you even somwhat agree with it in your last post " if I run into someone and take them out,I should be sent to the back, and if they break check me then I should have had better control of my car".If a driver get's hit and looses control of his car he still looses control,and if loss of control is the issue then should a driver that has a flat tire and looses control get their position back?It's still the same thing.The all inclusive rule is a good one ,the officials can even check for damage to the car to help make a decision.Racing is a give and take sport no one wants to give and everyone wants to take.Some times the guy that wont give makes the faster car have to take. If your the lead car and you know if you get spun you will get your spot back it allows you to block the other guys line more ,but if you know that if you get spun you both go to the back you will drive a little cleaner line and give the other guy a little more room knowing that 2nd is better than next to last espicaly at the end of the race Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinghia50 Posted August 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Nick,what I mean about the carbs is for Neil and whoever else has a sayso make it a rule that every car has to run the same carb,no matter what its make is,or what the car is,currently I enjoy a bigger carb and would gladly give this up to make all cars run the same carb,I will even build a manifold to accomodate whatever carb was decided on.Thanks speedracer and racerjim2 you both provide some good points and I dont know if yall are racers but I can tell you that I also race a vw bug and ghia on the dirt tracks around Houston,those tracks do make calls because I have been sent to the back for also running into the leader trying to make a pass,I drove to hard into the turn and rammed him from behind causing him to spin,and I was immediatly given the rough driving hand signal and sent to the rear,and yes I did deserve it!!! The leader was reinstated and he won a well deserved race,my point being I would be happier with a call from the officials nearest the wreck,sometimes you will get a good call sometimes not but I think this would be much better for the people taken out. Alright Nick, you want me to be an official...........If the race would have gone yellow when Bill and Donnie hit,Bills fate was sealed with the flat tire,and why should Donnie go to the rear,he did not spin or cause anything to happen,restart the race. done deal. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Randy, You are perfectly entitled to run the 38mm x 38mm Weber, just like everybody else if that's your choice. Do you think we should take away the 15% weight break for air cooled VW's too? Just kidding..... OK Mr. Official, you got lucky that Bill got a flat.. that was the easy way out.. LOL. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinghia50 Posted August 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Nick, you are a great official and the person for the job, You know that if I took that 15% weight and welded it to the front of the ghia maybe the darn car would turn better....LOL Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy lee Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 im a firm believer in this so ill say it again........yes the restrictor plates will slow the mustangs down( 42 mm down to 38 down to 34 in 1 season) but it wont keep them from handling. i dont and wont ever have a gripe about rule changes until they put street tires on us and take the race out of the racecar. until then lets take what they give us,get out of the motor dyno, and get on the chasis dyno!!!!!!!!!! fast cars turn left. what an interesting race kyle is shaping up to be....ought to be a good one. as far as everyone "being equal" that will never happen!!!!!! front wheel drives and rear wheel drives are 2 different species. this will always be a headache for the tps officials. just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDish2 Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Randy, You hit the nail on the head. Bryce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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