An IDEA for ROMCO

[Jason]

I am wondering what everyone thinks about crate engines? I think if ROMCO changed its rules to lighten the cars a bit then the speeds wont be far off what they are now. It will definatly help the smaller guys and TMS wouldnt be nearly as much of a problem for the low budget guys. The reason I bring this up is that I expect ROMCO to try 2 races next years at TMS and Houston Super Speedway is supposed to open Spring 2005. That will be a cool track too. ROMCO needs to find a cost effective way to keep the cars competitive at tracks that require a plate. Maybe with the crate engines they wont even need a plate. They could REALLY dirty up the cars and then it would be a GREAT show at the big tracks. I love ROMCO but it was obvious who had the most $$$ under the engine. I know there will be people against it. Take a look at ASA though. Engine costs were skyrocketing. Now look at it. The only downside is there is only a GM engine in ASA. If you check out the USPro racing series they have GM and Ford engines. Maybe a Dodge soon? Here is a link to the comparison in price between a crate engine and a professional racing engine. http://www.usproracing.com/enginecosts.html

Think of all you can do with the added money. This would increase car counts in ROMCO.

 

Here are the dyno results for the Ford and GM engines.

http://www.usproracing.com/chevdynoresults.html

http://www.usproracing.com/forddynoresults.html

 

I know the HMS latemodels are trying it but I don't think there is a purse. I think it would take an established series to do it right.

 

I think if Terry Barden and Robert Mullins announced this season that for the 2005 season they will be switching to Ford and Chevy crate engines the majority of the teams will be happy. I think this would be good for racing. Just will take someone with guts to enforce it.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Thanks,

Jason

[supertx]

If you want to run super late models run an open engine. If you can not afford to run this type car back down to the limiteds. If you still can't afford that go to street stocks. Racing is expensive it's not for every one's buget, run what you can afford, do not ruin racing because you can not get your financial package together. Part of racing is getting sponsors when you get to the romco level it's not a hobby even if thats what you want to think it's a bussiness you have got to take care of that side just like you take care of your car. At the romco level top teams will spend a $100,000 plus this is what it takes.If you ever want this class to grow you are going to have to step up the program make it more professional put something out there that,s attractive to sponsors,and professioal car owners that hire drivers.The haves and the have nots will always be there, there's know way to stop that.The haves will go buy 20 crate engines and dyno and find the best and sell the rest and thas just the start. Lets get more professioal less crying in the beer and make this thing work.

[Jason]

I talked with a few people on this subject. I can understand why this would and would not work for ROMCO. TSRS is about saving money and having fun. Maybe lighten up the cars, wider tires, and crates would be good for TSRS?

 

Jason

[Jason]

I am curious. Around how much do the top TSRS engines go for? How often are they refreshened? How much does refreshening cost? I think these crates could really make racing more affordable for many. Wheher it be in ROMCO or TSRS, I think it would be good.

[gasman]

Supertx,

You are correct on this one. If you cant afford to race in the series, dont do it. The Romco series does not have a problem with car count, its only problem is with people trying to race in this series that should be racing in an entry level class. That lowers the quality of the series by letting anyone out there that can afford a car. They need to get rid of a few cars and the quality of racing would go up. The crate engines are just fine in a Late Model or Limited late model series.

[8racefan]

Romco series has turned into just a money series . The reason for the steel head motor was to save money. That was the reason behind it when they made you go to it.

[Bandit]

8racefan, what do you meen ROMCO is just a money series? I like the spec motor idea, but the power just is not there. I think it would be good for the 75% of the teams that have to buy motors and bad for the teams that do there own motors.

[Truck99]

Bandit,

 

You may know the answer to this. How are these "sealed" motors freshened during the winter? I'm sure the answer is relatively simple, but I haven't heard how they get around that hurdle.

 

Thanks,

 

Chase

[44SS]

I dont think the crate motor is a good idea for ROMCO, this is the top series around and enables those driving in it to travel nationally with the equipment they have.

[44SS]

I think the crate motor idea would be good for TSRS if the rules for the stock front clip were phased out, and you could build a true late model chassis, so that when and if you move up to ROMCO, the car is built and you can spend the money to build a motor and not on building a complete new car.

[fishracer]

I think that there will always be haves and have nots. But the key ingredient here is a racer with the drive to come to a track or sanctioning body with his car, crew and a positive addititude toward racing. This is what keeps the sport strong. Unfortunately it seems as those the rules that are out there are usually in a couple of different categories:

 

1. Copy cat- a track or sanctioning body trying to copy another series because they like the way it looks. They usually do not know why they using the rules just because the other guys are doing it.

 

2. Lazy - We have always done it this way and I all my buddies have the parts to run already. A proven class killer.

 

3. Social Climbing- I like to be around other racers but don't know much about cars but love to talk about racing, lets start a series or track and see if someone will come, I am sure they have as much money as me.

 

Just like a racer needing to look several cars ahead for the wreck, the sanctioning body (be a track or a series) needs to look ahead to the future of their perspective venue and make sure it is healthy for the future. This means to design your series so that teams can operate in good economic times and bad. Unfortunately racers will spend their way to the poor house if you let them. Its the race promoter/sanctioning bodies responsibilty to limit this for the health of the series. If you really look at lets say ROMCO (not picking on them especially) There are no major brand name organizations on most of the cars or even contingency sponsors. You would think with the area they tour in that some Texas based company would want to get their name involved or Maybe SAS could go after some of the sponsors that are on cup cars or a affiliated with NASCAR and local franchises with advertising dollars available. No one should complain if the tools are out there to make change, the only thing it takes is TIME and the willing to learn why you are making those changes.

[Bandit]

ss99, the crate motors are sent back to the manufacture to be freshened in most series.

[zoom]

I think that with crate sealed engines is a couple of things.

Takes (for the most part) the engine money out of the equation. This will move it to setup, handling, and driver.

The engines being used in other series are lasting up to a season and a half with little or no problems (chevy, I don't know about ford), then the refreshening is much cheaper.

 

Some series I think are running the late model gm factory with FI. Wouldnt that be a bear to tech?

But the crate engine being sealed, would insure no cheating. No seally - no racy

 

Should it be in ROMCO? No.

The elite class in Texas, With a touring class that is a big draw to the fans. Need the powerful motors.

 

TSRS, definately would benefit from the crate engine I think. Would be some really good racing with all the good drivers around.

 

My .02

[txtom]

Crate motors might sound like a great idea, but contrary to popular belief, they can be tampered with.

Tampering occured in the ASA series last year. Yes, the motors with seals all over them. Seems a few teams were cutting the safety wire on the seals at the end OPPOSITE the seal, such as at a bolt head. They then would go into the motor, change usually a cam, and then very carefully stick the cut wire ends back into the hole, and then pin or wedge the ends in place with a similar piece of wire. If you tugged on them, it felt like the wire was secure. They even found one motor with different pistons in it. And pinning safety wire is not a new trick; I work in Aviation Quality Assurance, and saw it on aircraft 25 years ago.

Tech and policing of crate motors would be as involved as any current motor out there, because of the racers themselves. Part of racing has always been to try to find an advantage. I'm not necessarily saying "cheating", but we have all found ways to work the rules to our benefit. And some will obviously go to any lengths to go faster.

And Bandit is right about who a sealed motor rule would help or hurt. The Wallaces develop and build their own motors. Their stuff is as fast as anything out there right now, and I know they save themselves a bunch of money over a bought engine. Some people take pride in having their own engine program. We built our own engines for years, and enjoyed out-running store-bought motors.

A crate motor program won't necessarily put it back into a driver/handling situation either. If the guy can't drive, the type of engine won't matter.

There was a time when people built their own cars, and could find something over their competitor, but now the chassis are basically identical, and everyone either has the knowledge to make them handle, or knows the knowledge is a phone call away. My personal opinion is a crate motor deal would lead to less passing, because no one would have any kind of advantage. We got too much follow the leader now, we don't need to add to it.

44SS brings up an excellent point. Make the chassis common from TSRS to ROMCO. The stock clips are gonna get scarce soon, and a common chassis would allow one car to run either series. Racing money comes and goes, and a racer could step back from ROMCO or step up from TSRS, without worrying about the rolling stuff. Heck, he could even run a ROMCO race one weekend, then change motors and run TSRS the next weekend.

Just my .04,

[meredith race engines]

i think a crate motor is a bad idea every thing i would say about it supertx and gasman already said they should ask some cars to leave and learn a little more and if they did do the crate mtr they would not beable to travel and run there cars elsewhere

 

 

jr

[Jason]

Txtom,

 

Couldn't a series like TSRS randomly confiscate engines and give them back a week later after being checked?

 

I knew we would get a engine builder on here

I agree with some. ROMCO no but TSRS yes.

 

 

Jason

[txtom]

Jason-

Yeah, you could do that, actually it is not a new concept to confiscate an engine. But you gotta find an official(s) that can do the job competently, and there in lies a problem. Does the official have the necessary tools, and the time, to ensure the motor goes back exactly the same as it came apart? If the motor was given back, and blew up the next race, the competitor and the tech guy would be blaming each other.

As an example, we used to run the ARTS Series. They took our transmission to inspect once, and when they gave it back, several things were wrong in it, and we had to take it for a complete rebuild.

Basically I think Crate might be OK for TSRS, but what they would really need to do the inspection is a motor builder that has no ties to any series racers, and is willing to do the inspection impartially.

With a couple weeks between races it is easy to do, but how about if you use that motor to run weekly at Kyle? Example--Snooky wins a TSRS race and has his engine confiscated. Can they tear it down, inspect it, and rebuild and seal it in 4 or 5 days? Probably not. The few competent machine shops we have won't drop their other work to do this, and they for sure won't rush the job. Maybe Meredith has an opinion on this, as he is in the business.

[lloyd#5]

i'm sure everybody that doesnt have a tsrs motor wouldnt care about using a crate engine but what would you like to do with our 10-15k dollar motors?use them as boat anchors? and from what i have seen tsrs cars are running pretty closely and no one is really running away with the series. so why would you need a crate motor all that is needed is good tech officials, which tsrs has, to ensure there is no cheating.

[HoosierDaddy]

wouldn't the series be able to purchase, lets say 50-60 motors and then sell them to the drivers? This way if a motor was to be confiscated, the series could give the driver one of the other motors the series owns and there would be a constant cycle between the series and it's drivers. But then again maybe this wouldn't work, what do yall think???

[97car]

You are overlooking one point,yes ASA went to a spec motor,they did outlaw a special transmision a couple of years ago when Tommy Grimes bought his car but they did not outlaw the carbon fiber driveshafts and ultra-light clutch and flywheels,which I was told can run as much as their engines. In my opion I do not like spec engines,makes racing boring to me.How about looking at the cost of these stock template bodies instead and open the bodies up like the main event series does,they are cheaper and easier to make.Plus with spec motors how could you get any local engine builders for a sponsor? Seems like it would only benefit GM,look what they tried to pull on ASA a year or two after that deal started.

[racerjim2]

Jey why dont the series buy all the engines and pass them out like restrictor plates befor the race and pick them up after the race is over that would save the races a lot of money.ha..haha

[meredith race engines]

we build mtrs for 8 classes that i can think of and for us to drop what we are doing a do an inspection would be hard maybe if you had a conract but then it would piss of our reg cust it would be a no win sits like tom said u would have to find some one that has no tyes and thats going to be hard

if it ever did go to a spec mtr HD had it right u would have to have extras to pass out but like in asa there is no way that some of those mtr r steal sealed i have seen cars pull 2-3 car le down the strait and handling may have something to do with it but not all i seen that at houston

 

 

jr

[meredith race engines]

one more thing lloyd 5 is also right what r u going to do with these 10-15 $$$ mtrs that may steer people a way from the series

 

there are sides to both

[Jason]

That is why u get them a warning of over a year. And if they wanna run THR on offweeks they can put that engine in.

[gasman]

I see nothing wrong with any of the engines being run in any series. If it is a money thing, why not run the series you can afford? Why penalize the guys who are doing things in their own shop because some guys cant afford it? I heard someone say everyone has a right to race in the ROMCO series. That is far from true, they need to earn it. That can be done by taking care of business, having competitive equipment and have at least raced in some entry level class before.