Universal Texas Latemodel(weekly

[fishracer]

After reading Jason's excellent post, I thought maybe we should continue the dialogue. His idea of a class that all tracks could use and have a constant flow of cars. Here it goes:

 

1.) 3100lbs-55% left side weight (any rear, don't know why TSRS has this crazy rule) Crankshaft height off ground 12"- 4"frame and body height.

 

2.) Any chassis, stock clip-tube , all tube slm, all tube nascar, big springs, leaf springs, coil overs whatever. conventional steering, rack steering ok.any (When you get the weight up to 3100 the unsprung weight is less important than when you get down below 3000lb and the advantage of a rack over conventional at this weight is almost nill if you allow the conventional guys to get creative with their steering adjustments, it will still not make them any faster than a guy who uses enginuity with his stock stuff, just looks trick) Also, from a safety standpoint it would probably be better to say perimeter car, but trying to teach everyone that at 3100lb its kind of crazy to make a car leftside is just a waste of time and the object is to get car count and get as many cars as you can.

 

3.) Any body material except carbon fiber(would be better with steel or aluminum, then you would not have to check for the high dollar parts) Body must conform to the basic measurements in five star catalog or can be stock production style, no slab sided or wedge style.

 

4.) 10" wheel ok, wide 5 or 5x5 ok, any brakes (not really any advantage especially since weekly races are less than 50 laps in most cases) Any offset wheel. (One less thing the tech guy has to check and with the weight rule 55% who cares)

 

5.) Any stock case 3 or 4spd transmission with all the gears working(easy to tech) This means any muncie,T-10,saginaw etc. (This also means the T1-0s can say Doug Nash or Richmond on the case since Borg Warner sold their transmission division to 1st Nash now the Nash to Richmond.) Mini clutch ok Limited to 7.5" and with weight rule on assembly. (Hell the TSRS guys are spending that much or more on those 10,000 rpm, Quarter master big clutches and with limited horsepower they will last forver.) Steel Drive shaft only.

 

6.) Quick change or Ford 9" ok, limited slip, spool or detroit locker ok. Absolutely no triple tracks or other exotic differntials.

 

7.)Now for the part everone has been waiting for, the most expensive and contoversial part THE ENGINE.

 

To try and cover all the bases. They will be a blend of TSRS,THR,SAS and HMP.

 

350-360 cid max. Stroke must be stock for make of engine.

crank weight minimum 48lb.

rods must be steel, not titanium,alum etc.

wet sump only, no dry sumps kick out pans ok.

ignition must be stock type, msd ok, no crank trigger. 1 msd box

flat top pistons only.

heads.

gm, ford, dodge, 2.02 in 1.625 ex.

gm heads, gm factory straight plugs 58cc minimum, vortec 55cc with

1.94in1.5 ex. bowtie 62cc (nascar spec), world products/eagle 186cc ok but with 62cc.

 

ford N351 (62cc nascar spec), cleveland or windsor(no criss cross of block styles ie. stroking up windsor to cid.

dodge W40 ok (62cc)

 

 

carb 500cfm holley 2bl part 4412 or new holley hp500. tool check legal.

 

HMP crate motors-100lb weight brake

 

This will also bring up some grumbling. But hear it goes.

 

Intake-Edelbrock performer part 2101(vortec 2116) and the Ford or Dodge equivalent. The reason for this is probably for ease of teching and piece of mind for the racers knowing that everyone has the same advantage on the intake side. The reason for the intakes also is to try and keep the hood flat so no blind spots. Also for those who are grumbling about the cost of the intakes you spend that much on 1 tire and you can get them or order them at most AutoZones, pep boys or Advance or your local speed shops.

 

Spacer limited to 1"any material, straight holes only. Open element air cleaners limited to 15" dia. Again that way everyone can see what everyone else has intake wise and it is kind of a horse power limiter. The air box guys already have them inside their air boxs so they are not having to buy one. Aluminum or steel top and bottom only. No velocity stacks or venturi style air cleaners lids or bases. No KNN style tops.

 

These rules should be easily enforcable and as long as the tech people know why these were written they should be easy to explain and follow.

 

These should be broad enough in scope that you will pull in all different kind of cars and should not give any one person a dollar advantage over a guy who has a lot of skill but no bucks. May have missed somethings but tried cover the most cars available. The rules need to be even more detailed to try to cover as many holes but I already took up too much space.

 

Again the common gripe and the gripe that has killed a 1000 classes is "BUT I ALREADY HAVE THESE PARTS". Get over it and race for the future.

[jp17]

Obviously both Fishracer and Jason put a lot of thought into the common rules plan and on the surface it sounds like a great idea. I would submit that there are a few obstacles however.

 

The first assumption is that local tracks need a common weekly late model class to thrive. I am not so sure this is the case. Looking at the 4 tracks in this region it would seem that the one boasting the greatest turnout at front gate is CC Speedway. This track runs 3 classes, which typically each put 16 – 20 cars on the track. As we all know, the top class is a car that falls somewhere between a bomber and a street stock rules-wise. The reason this formula works is that the cars are relatively inexpensive to build and maintain insuring adequate car counts. SAS, on the other hand typically puts out just shy of 14 Late Models at each weekly show, a very respectable number and due, in large part to the NASCAR sanction. The rules you propose, would preclude SAS Late Models from participating on a level playing field with the rest of the country in NASCAR’s post season points and monies, which I suspect, is the biggest reason the track is able to maintain car counts.

 

The second assumption is that Late Model type teams want to race in a weekly show. By my count there are somewhere between 50-60 Texas late models (all types) that competed “full-time” this past season. That number included both weekly racers (THR, SAS, HMP) and touring series (Romco, TSRS). Not surprisingly since the advent of TSRS that number is skewed about 65% to 35% between those cars that tour (65%) and those competing in weekly shows (35%). On the surface that would seem like fertile ground for your scenario but the numbers bear further investigation. If you divide the `03 season in half you’ll find that number to be about 80% to 20% in favor of the touring cars for the second half of `03. The trend appears to be that given the opportunity Late Model type cars overwhelmingly prefer to race at different tracks with time off between races yet still be able to compete for points.

 

Thirdly I think it is making a big assumption that you could convince all 4 tracks to abandon their current philosophies and meet on some common ground. Each of the 4 tracks has wildly different ideas about how to promote a Late Model class or not to. CCS has none, THR runs a 108” stock clip, SAS a Late Model Stock, and HMP a Super Late with a crate engine rule. You couldn’t be more diverse if you planned it that way!

 

Lastly I think it is a flawed assumption that all types of Late Models in Texas can be brought together and made equal mostly by just adding weight. I think you discount too heavily the advantages of un-sprung weight on spring and shock rates, the lower cgh allowed by off-set cars, the steering accuracy of a rack, the better ratios allowed by coil-overs, and the distinct advantage of multi piston brakes to name but a few. To truly level the playing field you’d need a much greater weight differential and given that stock clip and LMSC type cars will have a hard time getting much below 3000 you’ll end up with cars at 3300 or more and that’s starting to get a bit ridiculous.

 

As an alternative why not just make things simple? Make the NASCAR LMSC the “standard” weekly car. There are lots of them out there and the most successful weekly class already runs them. SAS and THR are close enough to one another that the cars could easily cross-compete. This could become a huge advantage for the racers in the NASCAR year-end deal if all 3 got the sanction cooperated. The 350 cfm motor is virtually the same horsepower as the crate already run in Houston so that would make it even easier for post season “Texas Champion” type events. In the end I think it would allow the tracks to build and maintain a solid Late Model base while at the same time allow them to benefit from the additional revenue generated from the 2 already established and successful touring series. JP

[racerjim2]

JP you make some good points but, the NASCAR post season monies 2 years ago was won by a full blown modified,(3)imca modified,(4)NASCAR late model stock,(2)super late models. NASCAR provides a set of rules for the late model series but they leave it up to the tracks to select and enforce thier rules.Most tracks in the southeast use the suggested NASCAR rules however the tracks in the Northeast run more of the modified type cars and tracks in the west run a super late model chassis with a 2 barrel engine.I ran with the Kyle late models with my NASCAR lae model a couple of years ago. and did OK and if TSRS would allow 105" wheel base cars I would run some races with them.I think the tires are the limiting factor in the formula when the TSRS cars put on the 10" tires the lap times droped by over 1 second per lap in qualifing.Todd Maclamore ran a 19.4 just slightly slower than Brandon Bendele who was driving david Sevilla's car.They Qualified #1 and#2 with all the NASCAR late models trailing them.

[HoosierDaddy]

The only big end of year race that runs under the Nascar Latemodel Stock rules that I know of is the Taco Bell 300 at Martinsville. I'm sure theres a few others on the east coast, but nobody from here really ever goes to run those races, and it seems like thats the only time having a true Nascar Latemodel Stock would come into play.

[jp17]

I stand corrected. You guys know your NASCAR stuff! I wasn't aware that a track didn't need to conform to NASCAR rules to participate in the year end points fund. Given that the most successful weekly LM class in the state runs that car wouldn't the remainder of the reasoning still hold true? Better yet, wouldn't 3-4 Texas tracks all running under basically that same set of rules be a darn good excuse to start a second big year-end LMSC race in Texas, at say, San Antonio?

 

I think racerjim2's example points out just how difficult it would be to equalize all types of LMs in Texas. Even the two closest in rules (SAS LMSC and TSRS) had huge inequities that the promoter failed to take into account. Personally I'll trade a heavy clutch and 2 inches of wheelbase for 100 hp anyday. JP

[racerjim2]

Amen brother JP,my thinking exactly since the wheelbase thing is not an advantage unless you can run lighter, it might help then.By the way, if SAS changed the rules so the TSRS car could run with the late models would you, or any other TSRS drivers, race there?

[jp17]

I can't speak for any of the other guys but I don't see us taking a chance on tearing our stuff up at a weekly show at SAS and then having to thrash or even miss a TSRS race as a result, so no. JP

[racerjim2]

JP thanks for your response. I agree that if your running for the championship you cant risk the one off race here and there.what if SAS paid $1200.00 to win a week to win at SAS would that make a difference?

[fishracer]

Hey JP, thanks for the very informed response. What is it that attracts you to a touring series beyond not having to race every saturday night. What are your long term goals in racing and do you feel ROMCO or super latemodels is really a move up. In your opinion what would a track have to to do to get you to race for their championship. Have you discussed this subjects with your fellow racers and what is their opinions. Not taking the side of SAS but why is not the NASCAR points fund not attractive to you and your fellow racers. Do you feel that if their was a touring series that combined the chassis of the ROMCO style cars with the TSRS style motor would that be attractive to you and your fellow racers. I.E. 2700-2800lb car with a 450hp motor= mega car count=bigger show=bigger purse=attractive to regional sponsors.

[jp17]

You guys both bring up some excellent points. We ran the weekly show here in Houston in the mid to late 90’s and had a ball doing it. Mid-way through the `99 season we were informed that spec cars were the wave of the future and that our full size cars were no longer welcome at Houston Speedway. It caught us all off guard but THR said we could come run with their LLM without changing our cars. SAS said we could as well but would need to make some significant chassis and motor changes. THR was closer so the decision was made. From that point on those of us in Houston have had to travel to race and have gotten pretty conditioned to doing so. Not only does it add a pretty significant expense load to the racing budget it takes a lot more time. When we raced at home we’d leave for the track at 3:00 Sat. and get home to our own beds about midnight or 1:00. Traveling, we leave at the crack of dawn Sat. and don’t get home until Sunday afternoon. We have to load Friday night so the car has to be done Thursday which essentially erases a day and a half of shop time. The long and short of it is that even if SAS paid $5000.00 to win there’s no way my team could commit that amount of time to racing for a championship 200 miles from home. Bear in mind that TSRS offers us the only venue where we can ever race our present cars at home. In addition, a lot of us in the series have raced together for years and are good friends away from the track as well. If there was a local track that offered what SAS does I think we’d all look at it pretty hard but going to different tracks is a lot of fun also. I know all of us in Houston really look forward to going to SAS. There’s no question that Romco is a step up, the cars are much faster and the talent pool is deeper. I think the top ten or so TSRS teams could probably become competitive in that series but I don’t know many of us that have the budget to do so. The 2 bbl. Motor in a Super Late chassis was the Houston Speedway formula and I think there’s a lot of merit to it but Mary Ann recognized that there were a lot of stock stub cars out there sitting idle and really hit on something. Given that there were in excess of 30 cars at several TSRS races this year and knowing that a lot of new cars are being built/bought for next season don’t be surprised if 40 cars show up at more than a few races. We definitely experienced some growing pains this year but I think the series has an extremely bright future. JP

[ups88john]

well put jp, i agree 100%

 

big john