corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Not too many people can complain about the way the management and officials run the track @ THR and get any kind of positive response or response at all. Usually it's just David Mackey having to get up and speak before the driver's meeting on behalf of all the officials. He's the only one that tries to help the racers and he's the best thing that has happened to that track. The track makes the rules as they go and sometimes they even remember they have made a rule in the past and try to enforce it many years later. They even went far enough to tell HS - Red Shark racing #15 he was disqualified because "they should have known shimming the rear differential was illegal". They told me we should have looked in the Street Stock rules and seen that it was not allowed for them nor should it be allowed in Hobby Stock. The rules for street stock read: "REAR END (DIFFERENTIAL) 1. Quick change rear ends are not allowed. 2. The rear ends may be exchanged from one manufacturer to another BUT they must retain the stock OEM mounts for the body being used. 3. The rear end may not be shimmed, locked, limited slip™, or performance type. And the rules for the Hobby Stock read: REAR END (DIFFERENTIAL) 1. locked, limited slip™, torque sensing, or positive track™ rear ends are NOT allowed. 2. Quick change rear ends are NOT allowed. 3. Ford 9-inch rear ends may be used in any car BUT all of the factory trailing arms and shock brackets must be factory stock for the year and make of the vehicle. THE HOBBY STOCK RULES READ NOTHING ABOUT A SHIMMED REAR END! AND IF SHIMMED AND LOCKED WERE THE SAME THING...THE RULES FOR THE TWO CLASSES WOULD READ EXACTLY THE SAME!!! If i was intentionally cheating, or knew what I had done was WRITTEN IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE RULES I READ WHEN BUILDING THE CAR; I would shut up & take the DQ -- but all I did was FOLLOW the rules when building my car!!!! Therefore I have lost all chances of passing the third place car in the points (who seams to have his own rules as well - the track says "if you solely cause three cautions - you are out for the night" The third place car in the points spun 4 times last week, by himself to not even get a warning. Yet, two other cars in HS that night that spun 3 times solely were done for the night.) How is that fair??? There is definitely a problem - The Rule enforcers DO NOT ENFORCE THEM, unless you aren't on their "good side"... That's why you have cars running over cars and men wanting to fight, because they have to fight their own battles out there because the track won't help them do it, officials asking drivers what they should do about other drivers, drivers threatening other crews with tire irons & no one doing anything about it, people spinning out on the rocks & getting suspended ...One of the few to ever even be suspended - just so happens to have been in the points lead. The track has their favorites and if your in, you have it made, if your not - it's hell in the running... Ever try to beat the racecars on the track and beat the officials??? I have and it sucks... I have been told go to the back of the line because the officials didn't see what happened. The conversation was "did you see what happened?" "no, i didn't see it" "Well, then just send the #15 to the rear". That is what I have been trying to beat & I know that I am not the only one out there trying to do that. The rules are in black and white and the officials say I should have known it was a rule or maybe I should have read another classes rules and seen if it was allowed in that class... I was told I had locked my non- locking differential with shims, that would only lock it while racing when it was getting hot, well look at my concrete pit space - I did a one wheel peel until it got so hot it ripped the spider gears from my car. I was trying to flatten the tire but the spider gears that were not locked got hot enough to shatter because only one side was turning. You can't lock and unlock the differential - either it's locked or it's not. Some saw it and some did not, some will agree on my side, others will not say a word for fear to get off the "good side"... Bottom line is that it is supposed to be fun and bring good times to our lives but it's not at Thunder Hill... THATS WHY THE TRACK IS LOSING ITS FANS AND CARS.. The fans won’t come if there are no cars, and all the officials know that time is near. I would like to know how I went against the rules? Thanks, John Lasker Red Shark Racing HS #15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Like most racing controversies, I bet there are two sides to this one. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt5858 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 [Comments removed by Nick Holt, 9/16/03] So Sad to hear that you got Disqualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Well, I've yet to see a team get DQed and act happy about it. John, I watched the Hobby feature, and I don't remember the 14 car spinning three times on his own. Kathy could probably correct me if I'm wrong, but is it possible you got that car and the 10 car confused? They look almost identical. I couldn't tell for sure in your message, but was your differential shimmed or not? If you shimmed it, I don't think you have an argument - locked is locked no matter what means you use to lock it. Just my .02, but I figured you wanted honest opinions. Chase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Chase, I did shim the rear end. Unlike street stock - the rule does NOT say I can't shim a rear end. Period. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 John, According to what you posted earlier from the THR rule book, "locked, limited slip™, torque sensing, or positive track™ rear ends are NOT allowed." Does it really matter whether you welded or used shims to lock it? It does clearly say that locked rear ends are NOT allowed. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 John, I respect you for being honest about that. And it's clear now that you're beef is with the wording of the rules. My experience with Jack is that he is a fair tech man. I'm not trying to kiss anybody's butt, rather just calliing it the way I've seen it. The good thing about disagreements like this is that it usually results in a more clearly written rule the following season. No offense intended here, but if I saw that the rule said no locked differentials, I would not shim it. If you put yourself in the tech man's shoes, it's pretty simple. When he checks the rear end for "openness", it's either open or locked. If his test showed that the rear was locked, it doesn't matter if it was locked by welding, shimming, a spool, or otherwise. I would venture to say that the majority of your competitors would interpret the rule the same way. Hopefully your protests will result in a more clearly written rule. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Yes the rule is vague, but the idea of putting a shim in a rear diff is to tighten up not completely stop it from turning..which would make it locked, I do think there is a difference to weld a rear diff and shimming it, when its locked it will only turn as 2 tires never as one, there fore my one wheel peal would have never happened if it was locked.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 John, the only really pertinent point is, what was your reason for shimming the rear end? If it was an attempt to get around a vague rule and run a locked (or limited slip) rear end, you don't have much of a point. If the intent was simply to reduce lash in the rear end, or some other adjustment that did not result in locking the rear end, you might have a point. The problem is, if what you did COULD have resulted in locking or limiting the slip of the rear end, Jack would have no choice but to DQ you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 T G I put shims in m rear end because my 410 gears lasted 6 weeks and shreded every tooth from the pinion, My idea was the on and off of the gas was making my gears go back and forth causing them to fatigue, I didnt even know anything about shiming would help anything but longjevety,, (speel ck that) i looked at the rules and it didnt say anything about it, I wasnt aware that a shim would make it a locked rear diff, WHY ARE ALL THE DRAG RACERS SPENING SO MUCH MONEY ON REAR DIFFS WHEN ALL THEY NEED IS SHIMS, WHY .... CAUSE IT MIGHT MAKE IT TIGHTER BUT DOESNT LOCK UNDER ANY STRAIN AT ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I think it boils down to one simple question. When you jacked up the rear end for tech inspection and spun one tire, was it locked or open? I'm assuming it was locked, thus the disqualification. If it was locked from the shims and heat expansion, it's not the tech inspector's job to determine how or why it is locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE INSPECTOR, MAYBE YOU SHOULD PUT IN FOR A JOB THERE, MIGHT DUE JUST AS WELL AS THEY DO.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 BUT HEY IM JUST A FLOOR SWEEPER WHAT DO I KNOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Hey wait. I'm a tech inspector ! lol If Jack had an "intent meter" or could read minds his job would be so much simpler. But he doesn't. So, alas, he has to go by the book and treat eveyone the same under the rules as written and interpreted by the track. Not by the competitor involved. That's just the way it is in ANY racing orgainzaiton, but it NASCAR Nextel Cup or Thunder Hill Hobby Stocks or Texas Pro Sedans. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 John, You couldn't be more wrong on any car spinning out four (4) times last weekend in the Hobby Stock Feature. One car did have 2 SOLO spins, that did cause yellows to be displayed. He was black flagged. They were both on lap 14. The first time was at the beginning of lap 14- the lap did not get completed- then we started that lap again and he spun out again. So, that was two and he was gone. As for the guy running 3rd in points- he spun out once ( A SOLO) and caused a yellow and he was put to the back. That was on lap 9. At no other time in the race did he have a solo spin out or cause a yellow flag to be displayed. Read the rules. It clearly states "Any car causing three yellow flags in a race will be black flagged." I am sorry you feel so badly for being DQed. My best advise to you or anyone for that matter is if it doesn't say you can do it in the rules --------- than don't. Jack is always around for you to ask questions. I am always around before races start. And anytime someone emails me with a questions I ALWAYS respond to them. I may not always have the answer, but I try my hardest to find it for you and/or forward the email to the person that does. Any time you would like to see my score sheets after a race --- you are more than welcome to do so. They are usually like reading a book. You would be amazed at what they tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 KATHY - MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT I DID READ THE RULES -- AND THE RULES IN HOBBY STOCK SAY NOTHING ABOUT SHIMMING YOUR REAR END! PERIOD. THAT IS WHAT THIS WHOLE THING IS ABOUT -- NOT THE DQ - BUT THAT YA'LL SAY YOU GO BY THE RULES - AND IN HOBBY STOCK, IT'S NOT IN THE RULES. BUT CLEARLY STATES IT IN STREET STOCK. WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR EVERYONE TO UNDSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING? ALL I ASK, ALONG WITH OTHERS, IS HOW CAN YOU ENFORCE ONE RULE, BUT NOT ANOTHER?? AND YES, I DID PASS THE 3RD POINTS HOLDER, AT LEAST FOUR TIMES, FACING THE WRONG OR SITTING ON THE TRACK BY HIMSELF. AND BECAUSE HE TAKES OTHER PEOPLE OUT WHEN HE DOES SPIN, DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S NOT HIM CAUSING IT. I'VE BEEN THERE, I KNOW. JOHN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 John, Just because he was involved--does not mean that he CAUSED the yellow. #14 was spun out by the #94 on lap 3. 94 went to the back. #14 got his spot back. #14 had a SOLO spin on lap 9. #14 went to the back. Those are the only TWO times you passed him all night. Because he started at the back. You where ahead of him the whole race. And he did not take anyone out when he had his ONE solo spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 I probably shouldn't jump into this but here goes. This thread has gotten too emotional and off the original question which was, was the DQ proper. Rules are written not as guide lines but as laws which cannot be breached without penalty. If the rules do not say anything about shimming, and the rearend was not "locked" up (meaning you can still rotate one wheel independent of the other)as a result of any shimming, then the car was legal. On the other hand, if the rear end was locked then the car was illegal. It's simple and it's black and white. If you bring intent (emotion) into it you have weakened the reason for having rules. What if the next shimmed rearend is determined not to have been intended to be locked. THR can "clarify" the rules for any future races, but they have to live by their own rules on this one. Now you can go back to your diversion of who spun how many times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE INSPECTOR, MAYBE YOU SHOULD PUT IN FOR A JOB THERE, MIGHT DUE JUST AS WELL AS THEY DO.... John, I'm no tech inspector, but I don't expect the tech. inspector to have x-ray vision. If he can't see into my differential, all he can tell by the tech. test is that the rear is locked. Why is it so hard for you to understand this? Like I said before, ask several of your competitors how they interpret the rule. I'll bet you that they aren't running shimmed (locked) rears because they know they can't. It appears that you're not garnering much support from the TSZ either. That's because most people know that shimming a rear end to lock it is an old trick that is effectively the same as locking a rear end. It's one of those things where you run the risk of being caught if it doesn't work perfectly. If you get caught, accept responsibility and move on. I don't expect you'll agree, but that's cool. I'll leave this topic alone from this point on - 'nuff said - with respect, of course. Good luck next weekend. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modracer Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Ok its pretty much common knowledge that if you shim a rear end tight enough that it will be exactly like a locking differental. With that being said I have all heard positive things about Jack. If you believe that a rule is questionable all you have to do is ask him before you do it and he will tell you the true "rule." Now if you shimmed the rear end tight enough to where it spun both wheels then i would have to agree with the tech man, however, if you just have some shims in it then no its not a locking differental. I dont know the real truth because I was not there that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooky03 Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 I am not sure I want to step off in this one but here we go! First things first, John, I want to say that I have been really impressed with your performance this year. You have shown patience in your driving and that has been a tremendous step forward for you. You are a contender every week. Now as far as the DQ situation, I can understand and appreciate your point. I am a stickler for the wording of rules, but also understand there are grey areas. When you go in the grey area you take a chance unless you ask first. If you ask and you still go in that area shame on you. If you don't ask and go in that area, you take a chance. If you go in that area and find out you did wrong then you learn something. I see your point on the fact that the use of the terminology " no shimmed rear ends" was not included in the rules. The rules are telling you no locked or posi rear ends. At the time of tech both rear wheels turned the same direction while the wheel was being held. There was no slippage. At the time of tech inspection the rear end was locked. Jack is very fair. Take this as a learning experience and move on. Don't think you haven't done any good here because you have gotten attention to the issue and you can bet the clarification will be made verbally and in writing in the future. You have made a difference ( an improvement ) in the rules. Keep your focus and drive the wheels off it next weekend. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Well I would like to thank you for your honest opinon snooky, You have been quite q role model at Thunder hill, You have been a very good competitor in my class and you have done very well after the move up, I have learned alot after the DQ, I was trying to get the all, outa my race car, I guess i was mad because I felt singled out, Its hard enough to get in that garage never the less to get DQ ed after such a hard drove race, I have watched Jack in the garage say thats not legal to racers, and quote him "have it fixed by next week" and thats after i run a second to that person, but no DQ for him, has been a hard road at Thunder Hill for me, I guess I will just race my last race try to keep 4th and look at pullin to S.A. and be part of nascar drivers, Thank you for all you have done for me and said to me. Good luck in your points race ,,,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacecar Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Corvette John, From my experiences, I don't think you would receive any different treatment by the NASCAR tech inspection team at San Antonio. You are welcome to compete in San Antonio, however, don't expect to "stretch the rules" without taking some jeopardy for that decision. I'm a competitor at SAS, not an official. Good luck in your remaining races this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 not trying to stretch the rules or get away with anything , just want a rule to be a rule for all not some, I just talked to a couple of guys who used to race at THR and now at SAS . Downloaded the rules >>>>>>PLEASE CAN YOU BE ANY CLEARER THAN THAT...<<<<< the rules speek for themselves,, read our rules see what you think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.