NewRacer Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 In the early days of my racing no one would give "good" advise on how to set up a late model chassis. We had to learn mainly by trial & much error. I got a bunch of good info from Circle track mag. after years of fighting the car we started asking some of the faster drivers for help & they were more than helpfull. The late model we bought did not come with any set up sheets from the previous owner, and no help was given on how to make the car handle . Things seem to be much better now with more drivers sharing info. with the new comers. Most of the drivers in TSRS are from racing families, and grew up around race cars. For guys like me who came into racing with no inforamtion at all it is very tough to even get a starting point. How was it for you guys? Did you buy a car with set up sheets , and went from there, or did you just know how to set up a race car? Did you go through pretty much the same thing we did? Victory Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Have you thought about the library, book stores and ebay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewRacer Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Actually I did not list everything that I went through to learn about Late Model chasiss. I purchased all of the Steve smith chassis books, & went ot ever web site on chassis set up. LongAcre & rebco have a great web site for helping on Set up. Victory Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVCMNGR1 Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 It may be "old school" now but I have always thought Duke Sutherland was easier to understand than most other chassis set up guru's. Have you asked Nick for help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewRacer Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I have a pretty good handle on my chassis now, but I was just wondering how other drivers on this forum learned their set up. I know that Nick has a great course on chassis set up. I did not know that back when I needed help the most. I think TSZ is great for helping out new Driver find out where to got for good information. I know that CES99 has done a ton of research over the internet.Those guys have come a long way in a short time. I think a list of web sites for race car set up would be great to have for first time racers. Victory lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 NewRacer, Funny you should bring it up because I will be holding my 14th Suspension Seminar this fall at Ancira Chevrolet on Bandera Road and Wurzbach here in San Antonio. It's a six-week course and we meet the last three Tuesday evenings in November and the first three Tuesday evenings in December from 6:30 to 9:30 pm. There is just too much information to take in all at once so I spread it out over time. This is not a "trick of the week" course. I get into the meat of suspension engineering - stuff like weight, weight distribution and weight transfer; sprung verses unsprung weight; moment arms; body roll and jacking effect; spring, sway bar and shock selection; suspension geometry; roll centers verses center of gravity height; bump and roll steer; tire stagger; cross weight; roll-couple distribution; how to make suspension adjustments based on tire temperature readings; tire size, tire pressure and rollout. Lots more too, but you get the idea. My goal in teaching the course is to help folks get a solid good understanding of suspension engineering so that they can make their own suspension decisions. In case you want to find out what the course is like, here are the names of some of my former seminar participants: Mike Balzer, Doug, David and Dennis Lege, Eddie Bierschwale, Jason Oates, Hubert Bean, Teddy and Chris Schild, Joe Napoleon, Joe Aramendia, Jerry Spencer, Joe Osborne, Anthony Jetter, Mel Krauss, Pat Patton, Steve Lawson, Jim Creech, John Meyer and about 200 others. I'm pretty sure any one of them could give you a feel for what you will be learning. The course fee is $300. Class notes are provided. The course does involve some high school level math (simple algebra), but don't be intimidated by that. I give you an easy to use computer program that does the math for you! I do keep the class size small and the seminar always fills up, so it might be a good idea to email me at cnholt@sbcglobal.net and I'll get you on the list to reserve you a spot. I will be accepting actual registrations early next week after I get the final OK from the good folks at Ancira. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Can I apply for a scholarship? I'll start saving my pennies now. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckman Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I guess I'll be on the corner with a sign all weekend.Does anyone have an extra glass jar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I have not taken this class, but I would recommend to any racer that does not fully understand the items listed. These are not advanced concepts, they are basics that must be understood to be competative in the upper classes. I also gladly answer any questions at the race track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 ss99, I'm not sure if they offer scholarships, but you can take a similar course at the NASCAR Technical Institute (NTI) in Mooresville, NC, or take an ME course in a university somewhere, but you'd better have a lot more than three hundred bucks handy and you'd better have a pretty decent math background. I teach the seminar using vocabulary and concepts that are easy to understand. There are very few people who can actually teach suspension engineering without confusing the heck out of people so my goal is to design a course that the average high school student (or my mother) could understand and apply to his/her race car. Judging from the written feedback I obtain after every seminar and from what I have seen on race tracks around Texas, I have suceeded in doing so. Chase, since you have studied suspension engineering on your own, perhaps you can tell me where you can find understandable information about roll-couple distribution, the meaning of the moment-arm formed between the roll-axis and the CGH, or how to calculate and adjust the percentages of lateral and vertical weight transfer that takes place during cornering. I'm not saying you can't dig this information out from the various suspension engineering literature or gain this knowledge by trial and error over the years, but I am offering an opportunity for anyone interested in obtaining this sort of information, as well as basic suspension engineering priciples, to get it locally and at a very low cost. By the way, I do offer scholarships. When you take the seminar for the third time it's free. Several participants have come back that many times (and more). I know it is a lot of money to be spending on something other than tires or go-fast parts, but I learned a long time ago that this information is valuable. Think of it this way - it's less than a set of new tires and worth a whole lot more in the long run. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Hey Nick, From your post I think you felt that I was trying to knock the price, and I can certainly see how it would have looked that way. I wasn't trying to knock the price at all. In fact, it appears to be a bargain to me, and I'll be there if I can swing the $$. That's what I hate about typewritten media - it's very difficult to convey emotion correctly. I was only trying to throw out a quick joke. I can't give you a correct definition of half the terms you mentioned, so I'd be the first one to attend the seminar if funds allow it. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker36 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Oh jeez then sign me up Nick I failed Algebra 1 my freshman year so make it easy on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 ss36_tams37, I'm sorry, Matt, but minors planning to attend would need to have passed Algebra I. Now don't you wish you had paid attention in class? Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Chase, No problem. Somebody would have brought up the cost thing sooner or later. Might as well deal with it sooner than later.. LOL Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp17 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Trial and error/error/error/error was (is?) our approach. Steve Smith/ Bob Bohls books and pestering Denny Burton, Ervin B. and jracer98 to death for years now has our trial vs. error ratio down to about 1:2. We never found transferring shared setups from other cars to ours especially helpful. As jacer98 recently told me: "...pipe is funny. even if you own the jig, each car is different. Consider that cup teams build their own cars on surface plates and jigs with laser alignment but in the end, even their cars don't perform the same even though they are dimensionally 'equal'." We're in the midst of re-learning that very thing right now... JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerjim2 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 JP I like your description LOL but your right . Nic's class is worth way more money than it costs ,his advice on chassis tuning is priceless. Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckman Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Nick Just ribbing you about the price. Your course sounds like it would be well worth the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Chuckman, No problem. It gave me a good opportunity to deal with that matter right up front. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEEDDUDE Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Nick, Any chance that you may do chassis work shop in the houston area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin35251 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 sound interesting nick.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 DeeDude, I did one 6-week supension seminar in Houston a few years back. I'd consider doing another one in the Houston area if there is enough interest. Check around and let me know how many would want to sign up. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Since the original question was, "how did you guys learn chassis set up?" I think JP had the right answer: trial and a lot of error. Taking Nick's course is probably cheaper in the long run and will get you there a heck of a lot faster. The same is true of driving schools, by the way. (I know, we're all hero drivers and if we aren't fast, it's the car, but still.) You can learn a lot, and some of the stock car schools even offer chassis setup as part of the deal. But Nick's right, many of them expect you to know quite a bit already, and be ready to handle, if not higher math, at least medium math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bad427cat Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 I have two for the Houston seminar and possibly three. Thanks, Clinton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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