bill9 Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 just wondering as a 20 year spectator at SAS why you never see any toyotas running in the puddle jumper series. i have been to races on the west coast and they seem to dominate the ford 2.3 cars. ohh and yes nick i am referring to the pro sedan cars ,,.. heheheh. just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 bill9, I've heard the TPS cars called lots of things, but never puddle jumpers. LOL. Johnny Ivy used to run a Toyota and somebody else from up in North Texas did too, but I can't recall his name right now. The N. Texas Toyota won at least one TPS (TIDA at the time) race as I recall. Actually, a well-prepared Toyota would do well in the TPS in 2003. The 38mm x 38mm Weber carb which is now legal in the TPS provides quite a bit more torque than the 32mm x 36mm Weber they used to run. And if I have my engines right, the Toyota produces more torque than the VWs whereas the VWs have more on the top end. If I've got this all messed up, somebody please jump in and set me straight. I'm a suspension dude, not and engine man. By the way, a Datsun has registered for the 2003 TPS season. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 I think the guys name was Steve Edmundson in the #3 toyota in 2001 season that won one at San Antonio,and one at Thunderhill against Bucky,Leroy still using the 32x36 carb. One reason on Toyota is cost,TRD has all the stuff you could want if you have the $. Plus they have a hemi head on some of their engines, and Lance Gaither ran a Toyota with a 1600cc engine it had Arias popups and all but the car was heavy compared to Ricci Wares Nissan but still ran pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill9 Posted February 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 curious again ,,the 32 x36 out of the box flows about 330cfm the 38x38 about 370 cfm . why is the series stuck on the webers? holley makes a 350 cfm 2bbl and a 390 cfm 4 bbl. that is generally cheaper and easier to tune . just wondering why holleys pretty much got the boot ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 bill9, The 32mm x 36mm Weber has been the standard TPS carb for many years. Since we use carburetor rules and weight rules to match the potential performance of a wide range of engines and car makes, having carburetors with known performance characteristics is critical to maintaining performance equality. To allow Holleys with unknown performance characteristics into the mix would make the job of maintaining performance equality just that much more difficult. By the way, TPS does allow the 500 CFM Holley on domestic, RWD cars (those with aftermarket heads must run a 38mm x 38mm restrictor plate in 2003). This past season, after extensive research, we decided to allow the 38mm x 38mm carburetor for all TPS cars. In terms of performance (according to Bud Pauge of RedlineWeber Carburetors) the 38mm x 38mm Weber flows at about 350 CFM while the 32mm x 36mm Weber flows at about 250 CFM. As you may be aware, Weber does not rate its carburetors by CFM, but rather through bore size since CFM does not tell the whole performance story. Other considerations, such as engine size, type of racing, amount of torque needed, whether the engine is built for torque or top end horsepower, tuning adjustments available, etc. also play a role in CFM ratings. One of the primary reasons we elected to go with the 38mm Weber was that it has an adjustment that is not available on the Holley or the progressive rate Weber 32/36. This adjustment gives the engine tuner an opportunity to regulate the amount of fuel provided the engine at lower RPMs. In other words, the 38mm Weber can obtain low-end torque ratings near the ratings obtained by the Holley 500 in spite of it's smaller bore. In addition, it fits on the existing intake manifold used with the 32/36 Weber. Another reason we have stuck with the Weber is that many TPS teams already have Weber equipment and know-how. We try to keep expenses down (a nearly impossible task) whenever possible. I hope this answers at least part of your question. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill9 Posted February 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 nick, i realize you are one of the honchos with the pro sedan series. and i really didn't want to take this post to this point.i disagree with you on the statement you made about CFM not being a determining factor in carbs. this is one site that sells webers out of the box with the advertised CFM rating i posted.http://www.cliffordperformance.com/catalog/weber_214797_products.htm .if bud from redline is selling carbs with a significant lower cfm rating .i think your competitors might be interested. everything that has a hole in it that sucks air has a CFM rating. trust me on this one ,,hanging a VW carb off of every car in the class is not going to make them even remotely close to equal . giving all of them the CFM to have to lift at the corners and race would be cool , watching cars buzz around flatfooted doesn't do much but make the beer line longer. no longer curious ,,bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 bill9, No problem with disagreeing with me. If we all had the same info and saw things the same way it would be a pretty dull world. I don't believe I said CFM numbers are not important. I just said that Weber does not rate their carbs by CFM numbers, but rather by bore size. As Mr. Pauge explained in great detail to me, the actual CFM a carb flows in a give application (on a given size engine, at a given RPM, etc) varies greatly whereas the bore size does not. Therefore, Weber choses to rate their carbs by bore size, not CFM. And since all Weber carbs sold in the U.S. go through Mr. Pauge at Redline I figure I'll go with the information he gave me. I did go to the site you provided and sure enough, the have some CFM figures. I wonder where those CFM numbers were obtained. I suspect those figures were designed to sell carbs to customers who are used to rating carbs using CFM as the measure. That the website you shared with us provides CFM numbers that are higher than those estimated by Mr. Pauge does not seem at all strange given the tendency for marketers to spin their products in the best possible light. I also noticed the price for the 38mm x 38 mm carb we currently run in TPS is $369.00. This same carburetor is available to TPS members through Buggy Warehouse for $250 thanks to special pricing provided by Redline and Steve Foster at Buggy Warehouse. Regarding your point that the same carb on all cars in the TPS will not make them equal is very valid. That is why we have four carbs configurations in the TPS rules. However, anyone in the series can run either the 32mm x 36mm Weber or the 38mm x 38mm Weber. Domestic RWD cars not running an aftermarket head can run either of the Webers referenced above or the Holley 500 without a restrictor plate. Domestic RWD cars running an aftermarket head can run either of the above referenced Webers or the Holley 500 with a 38mm x 38mm restrictor plate. Air cooled engines can run either of the two Webers listed above or the Weber 44 IDF, but not the Holley. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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