RACING

[supertx]

In another section on this form I made a comment to Arts 22 about a grand a race to run a SLM if nothing happened.Several people said that was a lower end cost to even run ,more like a mod budget.So heres the Question what is the break down of cost.Travel,tires, race fuel,motel rooms,entry fees,food,etc.Since engines are no longer going to be the problem{ crate engines} wheres your biggest cost?How much cheaper is it going to be for you to race

[jracer98]

That's a very insightful question. Here's my thinking,

 

IF a TAMS engine that will run in the middle of the field costs $6000 to build from scratch and IF you spend $1000 per year on freshening it and IF it runs 3 seasons before it blows COMPLETELY up, your cost per year is $3000.

If you run a 604 for three seasons, change valve springs twice a year, your cost per season is about $2000. Depending on the integrity of the process, you have saved $1000 per year and have representitive power.

I have not taken the fact that they run on 93 octane fuel into account. There are some one time "crate startup expenses" like the spec carb, an external balance flex plate to run a brinn, etc.

 

I can't race all the races each season so it's not as big a deal to me but what does a weekly or 2/month crate racer do when you have a minor failure but can't get 'inside ' to fix it? Does the service "entity" turn them around quickly or do you really need a spare? That hassle and those "3rd party" costs have to add into the cost/year figure.

 

How do you guys see it?

Jay

[jracer98]

The above makes the assumption that you are starting with nothing. The crux of these deals is always how the "changeover" is managed. Will existing racers have enough time to get their "money's worth" out of engine(s) they already own?

 

I thought you were implying that the rest of the expenses would remain the same regardless of what was under the hood(assuming you were racing in the same type of car as before) so I was just thinking about the effects of the engine alone.

jay.

[gundogC3]

Crate's..........if you like em run em....motor's built....run em if you like em...SHOULD BE YOUR DECISION...but you are right.caint fix a crate, have to send em somewhere..

I've heard horror stories about crates..have to pay around 3,200 for one...then send it to have thing's fixed that should be good anways... 500.00 or more....have heard several have blown up during break in laps..

If you have a good engine builder, a built motor could last for season's.....

IT all adds up to who's gonna be THE ONLY ONE YOU CAN BUY A CRATE FROM......several people in racing make there living building motor's...GM has plenty of money.SO WHY TAKE OUT THE little GUY.....and also the little guy who doesnt have the money to run right out and buy a crate....jmo.....im sure this will be deleted...

[arts22]

Supertx, on average this is what is cost me to run in San Antonio:

 

Fuel round trip(deisel): $150

racing fuel: $100

Pit passes: $120

entry fee:$100

2 tires :$220

hotel: $140

food: $120

PM: $60-$150

 

Your looking at around $1000 for us to run the truck in SA. Everything could be the same for a SLM except your pm, tires, and racing fuel....... The last race I ran at SAS it cost me $4300 to get the truck fixed make it to and from the race and then I had to replace a trannie that blew up during the race, so you could add another $600... That totals $4900, Im sure under the same circumstance a slm would have cost twice that much to fix or more.

[Pacecar]

25 years ago, I was a drag racer.... until they introduced "bracket racing". Then it wasn't any fun for me any more. There was little incentive to try to tune for more speed. So I switched to oval track racing at age 29.

 

For the last 25 years, it's been a real challenge to race competitively in oval track. Handling and good tires is the most important variable. But it's all important to place well consistently. By far, the expense of tires has been my largest cost - almost half the total expense.

 

Some racers get the most satisfaction when they design their own chassis, build their own cars, and build their own engines. Then you can tune on the whole package. It's also more affordable that way.

 

There's the argument of crates, vs. sealed engines (forced-supplier built motors), vs. custom built motors. All 3 options are more expensive for me. It will be another "bracket racing" day when oval track racing makes the engine variable just another commodity that's part of the ante if you want to race.

[ProTree]

Pacecar-they still have the ole style heads up draggin-called outlaw 10.5-got a race in huntsville alabama coming up april 6-9-paying $50,000 to win-some serious change right there,dont care who you are-we have a series right here in texas i've done a couple races for and it is some wild,wild racing,cars run from hi 6-lo 7 @ 200 in 1/4 to lo 4's-160 in the 1/8,and some in between

[UMSCHEIDRaceServices]

not including time spent during week for maintance and supplies already at my shop i figure i need to win to break even, and i was on a pretty tight budget this year. it hurts worse during the 2 day shows becuase then your hotel, food, pit pass cost are doubled. But i can promise you as a racer if there is a friday practice i will be there in hopes it will help me win on saturday night. one other thing you have to look at that people dont understand is if you have to leave work or your business friday you might as well count that as an expense becuase i know that if im not in the shop working im not making money. if you think you can just spend 1000.00 and run a SLM competive your worng but if you wanna be a part of a competeive/winning team your 1000.00 per race will be greatly appreceated.

 

J.C Umscheid

[ups88john]

im sure allen and arthur could tell you more about how much we spent per race this year, but i would venture to say its about 1000 per car. we ran 2 cars, blew up 3 motors, replaced numerous body parts, not to mention a rear end. if you figure:

800 in tires

250 in tow truck fuel

200 in food

300 in motles

200 in race fuel

250 race entry

100 crew entry= 2100/2=1050 per car.

and thats just to get the cars to the track, factor in weekly maintnence on cars, towtruck, trailers ect its expensive no matter how you look at it. and this is just for a late model. crate motors may allow the racers that cannot afford a 13 or 20 thousand dollar motor to race if they have a car and 6 or 7 thousand for a motor to maybe race again. when you start to look at the numbers for a slm per race i bet it would easily double because of the maintnence on the motors alone. is a crate motor maintnence free, of course they are not but the cost has to be less than a motor that turns 8500+ rps.

 

this is my opinion on the subject, it may be way off base but thats the way it is.

 

big john

[kosherkowboy]

With the kost savings from motors, the tracks/series kould kut the purse in half so that it would give them more money for advertising. It is the fans and sponsors that are missing, not kompetition.

[CommonSenseRacing]

IF a TAMS engine that will run in the middle of the field costs $6000 to build from scratch and IF you spend $1000 per year on freshening it and IF it runs 3 seasons before it blows COMPLETELY up, your cost per year is $3000.

If you run a 604 for three seasons, change valve springs twice a year, your cost per season is about $2000. Depending on the integrity of the process, you have saved $1000 per year and have representitive power.

$6,000 for a middle of the pack engine, to me this means $10,000 for a winning engine. $1,000 a year to freshen it up seems a little cheap, but I’ll use your figures. That’s $12,000 for three years and that works out to $4,000 a year.

 

In a field of 604 crate engines you know would have a front running engine. For about $2,000 a year, that cuts the engine cost in half. If you were to have a problem, you could buy another engine and still be even. The one thing about this argument is that no one wrote about having problems with an engine they had built. So, if your going to make the argument about engine problems, I believe we should compare apples to apples.

 

As for the change over, there should be a phase in period of 2 years, giving the crate motors a weight break to be competitive.

 

Now on to the comment about bracket racing, oval track racing is a lot different from drag racing. By no means am I an expert on drag racing, but last time I checked you did have to turn left in drag racing. There are in my opinion a lot more factors that go into setting up an oval track car. If everyone has similar HP then it comes down to who can get to power to the ground and make his or her car stick in the turns.

 

One other note, which car do you think takes more abuse, a 400 HP crate engine late model or a 550 HP late model?

[Truck99]

One other note, which car do you think takes more abuse, a 400 HP crate engine late model or a 550 HP late model?

Probably the crate motor due to the fact that most racers rev them past the point at which they were designed to be run.

 

Regarding the comment about bracket racing vs. circle track racing - I'm pretty sure pacecar has figured out how to make his oval car turn left. Better than most of us, in fact.

[jracer98]

"$6,000 for a middle of the pack engine..."

just to clarify I was speaking in terms of expense (not exactly the same as performance).

 

 

 

"The one thing about this argument is that no one wrote about having problems with an engine they had built. So, if your going to make the argument about engine problems, I believe we should compare apples to apples. "

"After problem turnaround TIME" was the main point I was trying to make. Example: a pushrod fails, cam spits the lifter out, there's a little shrapnel in the valley. I can take the intake off and get it fixed up quickly and cheaply (assuming no collateral damage). With a crate, I have to pull the engine out, transport it "somewhere", they fix it on their time schedule not mine, I have to pay shop rates for the work I have to transport it back and then I have to reinstall it in the car. The elapsed time of all that may be more than the time until the next race if you are a weekly/ every other week racer.

Do you need a spare?

 

Jay

[CommonSenseRacing]

One other note, which car do you think takes more abuse, a 400 HP crate engine late model or a 550 HP late model?

Probably the crate motor due to the fact that most racers rev them past the point at which they were designed to be run.

 

Regarding the comment about bracket racing vs. circle track racing - I'm pretty sure pacecar has figured out how to make his oval car turn left. Better than most of us, in fact.

I doubt that they are turning the crate motors 8500 RPMs and my comment was not aimed at pacecar. It was meant to express that in oval track racing HP is important, but handling plays a bigger part. My apologies if I didn’t express myself correctly

[CommonSenseRacing]

"$6,000 for a middle of the pack engine..."

just to clarify I was speaking in terms of expense (not exactly the same as performance).

 

 

 

"The one thing about this argument is that no one wrote about having problems with an engine they had built. So, if your going to make the argument about engine problems, I believe we should compare apples to apples. "

"After problem turnaround TIME" was the main point I was trying to make. Example: a pushrod fails, cam spits the lifter out, there's a little shrapnel in the valley. I can take the intake off and get it fixed up quickly and cheaply (assuming no collateral damage). With a crate, I have to pull the engine out, transport it "somewhere", they fix it on their time schedule not mine, I have to pay shop rates for the work I have to transport it back and then I have to reinstall it in the car. The elapsed time of all that may be more than the time until the next race if you are a weekly/ every other week racer.

Do you need a spare?

 

Jay

That’s a good point no system is perfect, that’s one of the issues that needs to be addressed. Crate engines are not the cure for all the problems, they are in my opinion an affordable alternative. Although I have to believe that an engine that has 400 HP is going to be more reliable than an engine with 550. Not to say that there will be exceptions, sh#t happens.

 

As far as the $6,000, to compare the expenses you need to look at engine that are competitive not average.

[Guest noclutch]

Just curious, Is it productive to change the rules every year, seems like every year the rules are changed for "the future". Or would it be more productive to stand pat for at least 3 years.

[HOUSTONLM04]

By far, the expense of tires has been my largest cost - almost half the total expense.  

 

Tire Tattoing for racing

[CommonSenseRacing]

Just curious, Is it productive to change the rules every year, seems like every year the rules are changed for "the future". Or would it be more productive to stand pat for at least 3 years.

No, it’s not productive to change the rules every year, that’s why there should be a 2-year phase in period. This allows guys running today to use their existing equipment without having to incur extra unnecessary expenses and it also allows new guys to buy equipment that is going to be legal and cost effective. Doesn’t that make more sense?

[97car]

From what I see in the ASA rules they run a rev limiter chip set at 6300 RPM +-30. I do agree about the being able to fix things on your own thing being a disadvantage.

Think about this,how much did it cost to try and get the same HP out of the nascar legal engines with a 350 carb on them,seems like everyone had to run 6.25 rods and spend$1000 or more to get the carb to work to get 360 horsepower.As much as I despise the thought of crates or spec racing,for asphalt it seems this is the way it is going.Less hp and lighter weight,maybe even less tire wear other from them getting cut like on dirt when you run closer together. I haven't seen the crates or heard them race,they still need to sound like race cars though.The other issue that I see is too many rules.

[Crazyhorse]

I doubt that they are turning the crate motors 8500 Rpm

i think what ss99 is saying is like this. when i ran a race build engine in a truck let say at THR i would turn 6900 , when i went to a crate i was told not to go near that high by a piece of tape across the intake..the theory of the tape got tested.......repeatly.

[Truck99]

With the kost savings from motors, the tracks/series kould kut the purse in half so that it would give them more money for advertising. It is the fans and sponsors that are missing, not kompetition.

Kosher,

 

Last year, all three were missing I think, but you're correct in that the front gate must be addressed as well as the back.

[arts22]

With the kost savings from motors, the tracks/series kould kut the purse in half so that it would give them more money for advertising.   It is the fans and sponsors that are missing, not kompetition.

[edited out by Nick Holt, 12/19/05] If the cost of racing keeps going up and the purses stay the same then your not going to have noone to argue with.

[kosherkowboy]

kosher honestly thinks if you put more people in the stands, more people will race. Kosher thinks backwards at times, but the theory more kars = more fans may be backwards, kould be more fans = more kars.

[jracer98]

By far, the expense of tires has been my largest cost - almost half the total expense.  

 

Tire Tattoing for racing

That's interesting but they probably aren't changing tire brands for free. I would not look for the next rule to be one that cuts the amount of new tires racers are allowed to buy per season by 75%.

Jay