Snooky03 Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 The issue of teardown and inspection of engines to rule out the possibility that someone may actually think of running a light weight crankshaft in the Latemodels was briefly addressed Saturday at THR during the TSRS drivers meeting. Due to lack of time, which was probably a good thing, the discussion was cut short. I am wondering what fellow car owners and drivers felt about the process that might be used to check this area that would expose the "cheaters", if there are any, yet not put the "innocent", if there are any, in a bad position. Pulling the crankshaft does not excite me! I think the rule on crankshaft weight needs to stay, but the rule is no good if its not checked. How can the tech people check it, enforce it, yet use common sense to avoid any unnecessary teardown? Will it take the driver/ owner to admit to the infraction if called on it after a visual inspection indicates an obvious infraction? Would it be fair if the others involved passed a visual inspection to not tear down if the car that was in violation admits to it or challenges and tears down? Are we willing to accept the Tech mans judgement based on a visual inspection to expose blatant infractions of the crankshaft rule. Heres my opinion: 1. View through the inspection plug with a quality borescope. 2. If this is not conclusive or the driver/ owner challenges, then pull the pan. 3. If the visual is conclusive there is an infraction, then the disqualification is in order.(The visual inspection should be performed by a group of technically educated persons with expertise in this area.) 4. If the driver/owner challenges the ruling, then pulling of the crank is required. It would be difficult to spot a slightly underweight crank visually, but the superlight cranks should stand out. I am sure the tech group would appreciate any sensible input we could provide on this subject. Heck, its probably easier to pull um! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 David, I agree with your suggestions. I could be wrong here, but I think the cranks that are banned by the rule are pretty easily recognizeable by the naked eye. I think they are several pounds below the limit, so why even bother weighing them. I know they pull cranks at SAS from time to time, but I don't think any of the payouts are worth the time and expense needed to pull a crank. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckman Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Snooky & SS99 I agree the cranks that are banned are pretty easy to tech throuh the inspection plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 As I understand the rules, in TSRS the minimum weight for a crank is 48 lbs. I have yet to meet anyone able to determine the weight of a steel object simply by looking at it. Even picking it up and hefting it produces a rough estimate, at best. By taking the pan off you would be able to see if the crank had been knife-edged or significantly streamlined, but if the crank had been machined with the TSRS rules in mind, a sharp machinist could get the weight below 48 pounds without the crank looking obviously cheated up. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewRacer Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 I do not think it is a fair to ask a few select drivers to pull their crank. That would involve an unfair amount of money to put the motor back together. What ever happened to the days of "If you think someone is cheating you Put up $300.00 to have their crank pulled" If they were found to be leagle they got to keep the money to help towards putting the motor back together. TSRS does not pay enough money for me to pull my crank out. I would think you would have to clean the block, maybe polish the crank if anyone scratches it while checking. New Bearings gaskets ect... Who wants to rebuild a motor that is not broken. I do not think it is fair to ask one group of 3 drivers to pull a crank , and not make the rest of the drivers pull them as well. Why single out a few drivers? I am glad that the officials are wanting to be fair , but in the long run I think it would end up being unfair to some to ask a team to pull the crank unless you would compensate them to do so. maybe the payout is an extra $300. to cover part of the expense. Just an idea. Race On!!!! Victory Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ups88john Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 newracer, i talked to mary ann about that, and she said they have "gasket money" if they pull a crank. I dont recall how much, 2 or 3 hundred maybe. Now you say it is not fair to pull top 3 cranks, how bout when all they check is carbs or manifolds, they dont check every car for that. Fact of the matter is tech is part of racing, if you are gonna(and im not saying you or anyone else is) cheat, you take the chance of getting caught. Big John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp17 Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 I personally don't have any problem with the idea of pulling the crankshaft it's the actual doing it I'd like to avoid. I wouldn't even pull a crank out in our own shop so the idea of taking one out of a hot engine after a hard night of racing in a tech shack isn't very appealing. 48 lbs. isn't a number that was picked at random, it's about as light as you can get a stock type steel crank without getting into the counter weights. Sure you could lighten one up a little more with some creative machining and still appear stock but I doubt you could get one light enough to appreciably affect performance without it being pretty easy to spot. The thing that kinda stuck in my craw was that no one has bothered to look into the inspection holes we're all supposed to have and yet we're talking about taking the bottom end apart. Why not take at least peek inside before making us spend $700 - $1000 to put the things back together? JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 JP, How about this? 1) Tech Officials will routinely check cranks by removing the oil pan and visually inspecting the crank. Most teams change the oil every race anyway and a pan gasket isn't all that expensive. Only if the crank is questionable will the team be asked to remove the crank for inspection. If the crank is found to be legal, the team will be given "gasket money" by the sanctioning body. If the crank is found to be illegal, no "gasket money" will be given. 2) In the event that a competitor blows an engine at any time during a race meet, that team will be required to tear the engine down and present the crank (or what's left of the crank) for inspection to the Tech Officials. The team would have to rebuild the engine anyway. 3) Any team wanting to protest another competitor's crank must put up $700 protest money to be held by the sanctioning body. If the crank is found to be legal, the protester loses the $700 to the team that had to tear down. If the crank is found to be illegal, the protester gets the $700 back. Sound like a deal? LOL Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusty_rusty Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 that sounds like a winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp17 Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Nick, Your proposal is certainly more palatable than staying up all night for a crank pulling party after the races. If TSRS adopts your suggestion I'm sure going to kick myself for not reworking the cross member for clearance to pull the pan the last time we had the motor out! Instead of pulling it why not use the inspection hole and a bore scope? JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryLane Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Nick & J P are both right on the money. I like what Nick came up with , but I agree with J P that we should use the inspection hole that has never been used before we start costing racers more money pulling pans. I hope TSRS considers this plan. RAce ON !!! Victory Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Not that the rules should be written by a committee, but when folks who care come up with a better idea it deserves to be looked at. I bet Mary Ann and Bob will look over the proposal if a front-running TSRS competitor were to bring to them. And thanks to Jason for keeping the forums afloat and giving us the forums to hash these things over. I know it's costing him some money to do so. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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