TPS QUAL ORDER & RULES

[NeilTPS]

TPS QUALIFYING ORDER & RULES

 

@ Thunder Hill Raceway

 

Race # 10 - September 27, 2008

 

1--- 25 ® Mike McCain/Corpus Christi …. 0 --- 2008 points

2--- 50 Rick Dawdy/San Antonio, TX …. 0 --- 2008 points

3--- O4 ® Nathan Robbins/Bastrop, TX …. 4 --- 2008 points

4--- 9 J ® James Burrows/Yorktown, TX …. 5 --- 2008 points

5--- 66 Ariel Arredondo/Corpus Christi,TX …. 5 --- 2008 points

6--- 55 John Miesen/Marion, TX …. 6 --- 2008 points

7--- 97 Kevin Hallman/Cibolo, TX …. 6 --- 2008 points

8--- 38 Dave Parks/San Antonio, TX …. 9 --- 2008 points

9--- 23 J.J. Osburn III./Converse, TX …. 11 --- 2008 points

10-- 72 Candi Hogan/Cedar Park, TX …. 17 --- 2008 points

11-- 46 ® Mark Rahn/San Antonio, TX …. 24 --- 2008 points

12-- 18 Lanny Young/Kingsland, TX …. 26 --- 2008 points

13-- 94 M Adam McCosh/Cibolo,TX …. 27 --- 2008 points

14-- 84 J ® Josh Cournoyer/Wichita Falls, TX …. 38 --- 2008 points

15-- 71 Bruce Mabrito/San Antonio, TX …. 41 --- 2008 points

16-- 3 ® Bob Sherland/San Antonio, TX …. 48 --- 2008 points

17-- 56 Jason Krueger/Seguin, TX …. 49 --- 2008 points

18-- 28 ® Lisa Sandoval/Corpus Christi, TX …. 50 --- 2008 points

19-- 22 Harry Osburn Jr./San Antonio, TX …. 54 --- 2008 points

20-- 48 Mike Knotts/Universal City, TX …. 72 --- 2008 points

21-- 27 Bill Labarge/Bryan, TX …. 85 --- 2008 points

22-- 15 Tom Johnson/Kingsland, TX …. 89 --- 2008 points

23-- 26 Lalo Leal/Corpus Christi, TX …. 102 --- 2008 points

24-- 20 Sergio Hexsel/Live Oak, TX …. 112 --- 2008 points

25-- 70 Mike Merrell/Kingsland, TX …. 133 --- 2008 points

 

Qualifying Rules & Procedures (please read carefully)

TPS Time Trials will start at 6:00pm per Saturday hourly schedule. Be flexible and be ready to take both of your 2 laps. Cars must align for Time Trials as listed above. Drivers must have working scanner on VHF - 154.570 MHz at all times on track. Cars missing this qualifying order line may opt to re-align at rear and will receive one timed lap. For time trial purposes only, when signaled, TPS cars may go on a green track from the track entry road. After departing pits, cars should gain full speed quickly. All cars will receive a green flag the first time at S/F line.

2nd Lap Rule: Going on track uses 1st Lap. If you don't initiate 2nd lap at speed, go to rear of line for a 2nd lap re-run.

Track Exit Rule: Cars should exit track as-soon-as possible after checkered flag and drive slowly to TPS scales area.

Unless otherwise instructed by TPS, failure to exit track after one cool off lap will result in a disallowance of both laps times. All cars will be impounded for weight inspection after Time Trials. Break out of impound will disallow qualifying times.

The grid limit for the TPS feature race is 20 cars. The following qualifying rules will be observed:

In the event of a clock failure or negative track conditions, a qualifying re-run may be opted by TPS Officials. If there is a tie in best lap qual time, ties will be broken by highest TPS point standings prior to Sept 27, then by entry date. For drivers behind the fastest 16, positions 17 & 20 will go to best in TPS 2008 points standings prior to this race. If Time Trials are not held or not completed, the feature race grid is set Heads-Up by 2008 point standings, prior to Sept 27. At this race, an inversion draw will not be held to determine if any cars are to be inverted on the starting grid.

Per TPS rules, no top-off after time trials. (For TPS cars after the Feature Race - 28 lbs or 4 gallons top off is allowed). The THR scoreboard and PA announcements regarding TPS performance are not considered official by TPS.

 

The existing TPS @ THR time trial record is 16.832 set by #85 Ja Lane, Ford Focus/2210cc, April 12, 2008. The fastest driver breaking this TPS @ THR record will earn 3 bonus points. The fastest non-record time earns 1 point.

 

Disclaimer: The above Texas Pro Sedans qualifying order list is for the exclusive use of TPS drivers, officials and THR scoring. This list is composed of drivers who have submitted an entry form and paid an entry fee for the Sept 27th TPS race at THR. This list should not be interpreted as a list of TPS drivers who will compete on track or even actually arrive at THR. TPS is unable to determine the travel intent a TPS driver, who may or may not arrive at THR.

Neil Upchurch

Race & Administrative Director

Texas Pro Sedans

[txtwister]

Neil, you wrote. "The grid limit for the TPS feature race is 20 cars."

 

Does this mean that if all 25 cars show up then 5 of them will not get to race the feature?

[NeilTPS]

Randy: When anticipating large TPS car counts, TPS takes the responsible position and not just say, "Let them all race !".

 

Long-standing TPS policy reasons include:

 

> Having a safer race with cars of somewhat equal performance identified by the qualifying process.

 

> The purse budget can afford to pay only a certain number of cars.

 

> Length and size of track.

 

> Length of race.

 

> Race scoring capability.

 

In Texas, we have read that your class apparently doesn't have to deal with these policy decisions.

 

In the case of the Texas Pro Sedans race at the Thunder Raceway 2008 "Stock Car Spectacular" on September 27, limiting the starting field will likely become a moot consideration because:

 

25 entrys have been received.

 

4 entrys are tentative

 

One other entry may not be able to arrive at THR for personal reasons.

 

Possible car count at THR will be 20 which was anticipated in the posted disclaimer.

 

Therefore your field size question is also a moot point. We appreciate your concern regarding the welfare of current TPS drivers, which you were until six years ago.

 

 

Neil Upchurch

Race & Administrative Director

Texas Pro Sedans

[txtwister]

WOW Neil, it was just a simple question. I assume from your post that the answer is yes. You said yes with your long explaination then called it a "MOOT" point. I know well enough that if you write it then it must be a possibility. The reason that i asked the question is because i dont recall anyone having to sit out a race at thunderhill when I raced with TPS. So, i thought it was a new deal.

 

I have respect for you, what you do, and what you have done with the TPS series. The drivers are a class act. Its atmosphere is extremely professional and its looks like you all are having a bunch of fun, as we did when we raced with TPS.

 

Im not trying to be a jerk, so dont take them wrong but i have a couple of questions if you wouldnt mind answering them

 

You wrote.

 

"Having a SAFER RACE with cars of somewhat equal performance identified by the qualifying process. "

 

1. What is the biggest weight difference in the class? Heaviest cars weight minus lightest cars weight.

 

you wrote.

 

"The purse budget can afford to pay only a certain number of cars."

 

2. Dont the drivers pay $75.00 to race? Can that be their payout on the bottom?

 

you wrote.

 

" Length and size of track."

 

We raced at the Bullring in Las Vegas. Its a 3/8ths mile track just like kyle where we started 28 cars of the 45 that showed up.

 

3. Why would Vegas allow 8 more cars on their track at one time if its almost identical to Thunderhill?

 

you wrote

"Possible car count at THR will be 20 which was anticipated in the posted disclaimer."

 

I saw 25 entered, otherwise this really would be a "moot point"

 

4. Is the 2300lb R&D rule still in place?

5. What were your findings in the research and development?

 

 

 

As far as it being 6 years since we raced.....wow......i cant believe its been that long. As you know per our conversations at the beginning of the year we were considering racing with the TPS series this season. Heck i even bought a rolling chasis from Wichita Falls(which i still possess) to compete in because we didnt want to spend a bunch of money downgrading our PRO4 to make it legal for TPS rules. (quick change, racing brakes, etc) Anyhow, we were offered an oppurtunity to race our PRO4 right here at CC Speedway and we decided to put our stock into that. I am still considering a TPS season(maybe next year) because the guys(and girls) that race are really a super bunch of people and the class has been around for a long time. Asside from that my brother and i have sons that are interested in racing. I just want to see some more consistancy in the rules. Im not saying rule changes are always bad, or that TPS even needs more drivers but the last 3 years we raced (01,02,03 seasons) we were beat up pretty bad with carb restrictions and weith additions DURING THE SEASON. After 33 years of consistant racing i think the rules shouldn't need to be altered DURING THE SEASON, especially because the rules dont incorporate late model car parts. Its been the same type of cars for a long time and its obvious through all of the rule changes that the one who maximizes the rules will prevail. We proved that 6 years ago when we maximized the rwd rules and had great success. The one maximizing the rules may also be making a new rule in the process.

[NeilTPS]

Randy: I will answer a few of your lengthy questions in the time I have remaining before doing PA Announcing at a high school football game tonight and then TPS officiating the big upcoming "Stock Car Spectacular" at Thurnderhill Raceway this weekend.

 

WOW Neil, it was just a simple question. I assume from your post that the answer is yes. The answer was YES which I explained. You said yes with your long explaination then called it a "MOOT" point. I know well enough that if you write it then it must be a possibility. The reason that i asked the question is because i dont recall anyone having to sit out a race at thunderhill when I raced with TPS. So, i thought it was a new deal. TPS has published starting grid limits in several Pre-Race Bulletins which as a non-member, you don't receive.

 

I have respect for you, what you do, and what you have done with the TPS series. Thank You. The drivers are a class act. Thank You. Its atmosphere is extremely professional and its looks like you all are having a bunch of fun, as we did when we raced with TPS. Thank You.

 

Im not trying to be a jerk, so dont take them wrong but i have a couple of questions if you wouldnt mind answering them. I'll try.

 

You wrote.

 

"Having a SAFER RACE with cars of somewhat equal performance identified by the qualifying process." Yes I did. Perhaps I should have worded it "speed differential" which does relate to safety.

 

1. What is the biggest weight difference in the class? Heaviest cars weight minus lightest cars weight. Based upon published TPS weight regulations, cars in the THR race range between 2,300 lbs to 1,722 lbs.

 

you wrote.

 

"The purse budget can afford to pay only a certain number of cars."

 

2. Dont the drivers pay $75.00 to race? Can that be their payout on the bottom? No...We have other sources in addition to entry fees and want to remain as consistent as possible in purse distribution.

 

you wrote.

 

" Length and size of track." Yes, I did.

 

We raced at the Bullring in Las Vegas. Its a 3/8ths mile track just like kyle where we started 28 cars of the 45 that showed up. Other sanctioning bodies are free to risk their members as they wish. TPS has the same freedom.

 

3. Why would Vegas allow 8 more cars on their track at one time if its almost identical to Thunderhill?

I won't try to answer for the West Coast Pro 4 race policies.

 

you wrote

 

"Possible car count at THR will be 20 which was anticipated in the posted disclaimer." Yes, you read that paragraph correctly.

 

I saw 25 entered, otherwise this really would be a "moot point". My reference to "moot point" addressed the fact that TPS will probably have 20 cars at THR, therefore, no car will be left in the pits, and therefore, your concern was a "moot point".

 

4. Is the 2300lb R&D rule still in place? Yes, all season long in 2008.

 

5. What were your findings in the research and development? With 9 or 11 races completed, 2008 TPS Race Results have shown that the 2,300 lb cars have won 6 of 9 races and established both track qualifying records, so far. We have been evaluating this R&D rule all year long with the 2009 purpose being whether to leave it the same, decrease weight or increase weight. The 2009 TPS Rules will be distributed at the TPS Awards Dinner on November 8 and mailed November 10 to 2009 members who didn't receive their copy at the dinner.

 

As far as it being 6 years since we raced.....wow......i cant believe its been that long. As you know per our conversations at the beginning of the year we were considering racing with the TPS series this season. Heck i even bought a rolling chasis from Wichita Falls(which i still possess) to compete in because we didnt want to spend a bunch of money downgrading our PRO4 to make it legal for TPS rules. (quick change, racing brakes, etc) You missed 11 good purse TPS races in 2008. Anyhow, we were offered an oppurtunity to race our PRO4 right here at CC Speedway and we decided to put our stock into that. I am still considering a TPS season(maybe next year) A wise decision toward a worthy and rewarding objective. because the guys(and girls) that race are really a super bunch of people and the class has been around for a long time. They will appreciate your comment and the figure is 34 years in 2009. Asside from that my brother and i have sons that are interested in racing. I just want to see some more consistancy in the rules. What rules do you refer, TPS or Pro 4? Im not saying rule changes are always bad, or that TPS even needs more drivers but the last 3 years we raced (01,02,03 seasons) we were beat up pretty bad with carb restrictions and weith additions DURING THE SEASON. TPS Rules have always listed that rules contingency. Even NASCAR does. After 33 years of consistant racing i think the rules shouldn't need to be altered DURING THE SEASON, especially because the rules dont incorporate late model car parts. Its been the same type of cars for a long time and its obvious through all of the rule changes that the one who maximizes the rules will prevail. We proved that 6 years ago when we maximized the rwd rules and had great success. The one maximizing the rules may also be making a new rule in the process. Since you are a non-member, I won't comment on your rules philosophies regarding the Texas Pro Sedans.

 

Neil Upchurch

Race & Administrative Director

Texas Pro Sedans

[HiTech]

FOR MY POINT AS RULES GO ..MY OBSERVATION HAS BEEN ..AND OFCOURSE ITS JUST MINE ... AND IN NO WAY TRYING TO START ANYTHING ...I HAVE THOUGHT THAT WHAT NEIL HAS DONE THIS YEAR WITH WEIGHT RULE HAS MADE RACEN BETWEEN FWD AND RWD ALOT CLOSER AND BETTER RACEN ...A FWD IS GOING TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AGAIN THIS YEAR ..NO COMPLAINTS HERE .. MIKE AND TEAM HAVE DONE A WONDERFULL JOB ... BUT THEY CAN BE BEAT ANYTIME AT ANY RACE TRACK WITH THE RULES AS STATED ...THEY HAVE RAN AND FINISHED EVERY RACE BUT ONE ... . THE RWD HAVE WON A FEW MORE THIS YEAR THAN OTHERS ...MOSTLY ONE RWD HAS WON THEM ..AND HE HAS STARTED UP FRONT IN ALL ... GOOD JOB ON THIER PART ...ANOTHER FRONT RUNNING FWD HAS HAD BAD LUCK THIS YEAR SOMETHING HE HAS NOT HAD IN ALONG TIME ...SO WE KNOW THE WIN SPLIT COULD HAVE BEEN ABOULT EVEN .... IF RULES HAVE TO BE ADJUSTED FOR NEXT YEAR .SO BE IT ..BUT I HAVENT HEARD MUCH COMPLAINING THIS YEAR ABOULT ANY OF THE LAST FEW YEARS COMPLAINTS ....... ID SAY ITS BEEN ONE OF THE BEST YEARS FOR BOTH TYPS OF CARS .. THEN AGAIN WE RACE A RWD ....NO FAVOR.S HERE WOULD YOU SAY LOL

[97car]

I agree oldtimer, I think the racing has been a lot closer and harder then in a while. It is hard to keep the competition even with so many variations. I may not have agreed upon some of the rules thru the years, but Neil has always tried not to obsolete any existing cars thru the years and still keep the competition even.

Good job and thanks Neil as well as thanks for ensuring that we get paid and get a decent purse at each race.

[txtwister]

Maybe the R&D rule of 2300 lbs will be written into the 09 rules. If its not then thats just the way it is. Im not, and have never been one to gripe about rules. When the rules change, we make the best of it. My question about the weight difference in the cars wasn't to question the rule as being fair so much as being unsafe. 600 lbs of weight is a lot of difference between 2 cars. Scary to think about a tube chasis RWD weighing 2500lbs(like the prior rules required) t-boning a 1750lb car.

[HiTech]

Maybe the R&D rule of 2300 lbs will be written into the 09 rules. If its not then thats just the way it is. Im not, and have never been one to gripe about rules. When the rules change, we make the best of it. My question about the weight difference in the cars wasn't to question the rule as being fair so much as being unsafe. 600 lbs of weight is a lot of difference between 2 cars. Scary to think about a tube chasis RWD weighing 2500lbs(like the prior rules required) t-boning a 1750lb car.

Randy that scary wreck you DONT WISH FOR ..HAS HAPPENED .In 2006 . jessie had just passed the 5th place car when the second and third place made contack ..sending the 74 vw of john across the track in turn one ..jessie hit him at full throtle with maybe 3 inches from the driver door at darn near t bone angle ...it did a ton of dammage to johns car ..plus it broke some of johns ribs from what i understand .. either way it was really ugly loud .and painfull for both ......i was really surprised as others may have been to see john walking around ... it scared me to see and hear that 2585 pound car hitting a car 4 or 5 hundred pound less ....mack truck ...

[txtwister]

im sure it was more that 4-5 hundred lbs of difference, or could have been.

[Brazilnut 20]

Maybe the R&D rule of 2300 lbs will be written into the 09 rules. If its not then thats just the way it is. Im not, and have never been one to gripe about rules. When the rules change, we make the best of it. My question about the weight difference in the cars wasn't to question the rule as being fair so much as being unsafe. 600 lbs of weight is a lot of difference between 2 cars. Scary to think about a tube chasis RWD weighing 2500lbs(like the prior rules required) t-boning a 1750lb car.

 

Hey Randy,

Which would be more scary a 2500 lb. car hitting 1750 lb. car or 1750 lb. hitting 2500lb.?

If the safety equipment, role cage seat and seat belts were the same, the damage difference would be all cosmetic not a safe issue. If Lee Motor Sports builds a car for TPS under the current rules you all could smoke everybody, like you are doing now on the Pro 4’s, none of the others cars have fulfilled the rules. I can not improve my car any more. I’m maxed out, where a lot of the Fords still have room for improvement. The last Ford that used all the rules was #85 Ja Lane and with a little patience he could have won most races this year.

 

I am not complaining just making a point!!!

 

Sergio

[TPS70]

Ask Lalo how it felt when we hit him wide open on the front stretch in the dr side at red river. I bet he couldnt tell the difference between 1759lbs or 2300.

Our car is still on blocks, lalo's is still on the track tho he is still suffering somewhat from aches and pains, but overall we were both ok.

[txtwister]

Mr Sergio, it would be more scary for a 1750 lb car getting t-boned by a 2500 lb car. The reason for this is because a 2500 lb car carries so much more momentum than a 1750 lb car. Another more simple example would be to ask: Which would hurt more falling on your arm from 10 feet in the air, a 20 lb weight or a 30 lb weight. Mathmatically its the same because the 2500 lb car is 1 and 1/2 times(or 50%) more than the 1750 lb car just as 30 is 1 and 1/2 times 20.

 

 

TPS70. Given the above facts, if Lalo had hit you, then you (and your car)probably would have been in much worse shape.

 

 

This raises another question that i dont have the answer to, but im sure someone does: Are there any other classes (anywhere) that have 6-800 lbs of difference in cars running on the track at the same time?

[top dog]

ALL I KNOW THAT EVERY HIT HURTS THAT ONE HURT BUT YOU GET BACK ON THE STEEL HORSE & DRIVE.

[txtwister]

ALL I KNOW THAT EVERY HIT HURTS THAT ONE HURT BUT YOU GET BACK ON THE STEEL HORSE & DRIVE.

 

Lalo, not always. How many races have you missed because of your back? More importantly, how has it affected your day to day activities....work etc.

[1-Crew]

Randy, A much more important factor in how "hard" a hit is when two vehicles collide is how they are constructed and what part of the vehicles touch. The mass is important as it determines overall momentum but if you take two cars, 2300 lb and 1700 lb moving at the same speed, the 2300 lb car only has a 26% greater momentum than the 1700 lb car. The relative force applied to the driver in an impact is determined by DV/DT (change in velocity divided by change in time) or how fast the speed changes during the impact. This is a function of how much crush is built into the car with worst case being if the point of impact is a very rigid structure tied into the main cage (like the drivers door area). In the T-bone scenario you described, the big difference will be in how the front of the impacting car is built, not the weight.

[ratdaddy]

This sounds like a job for MYTH BUSTERS...

[txtwister]

Randy, A much more important factor in how "hard" a hit is when two vehicles collide is how they are constructed and what part of the vehicles touch. The mass is important as it determines overall momentum but if you take two cars, 2300 lb and 1700 lb moving at the same speed, the 2300 lb car only has a 26% greater momentum than the 1700 lb car. The relative force applied to the driver in an impact is determined by DV/DT (change in velocity divided by change in time) or how fast the speed changes during the impact. This is a function of how much crush is built into the car with worst case being if the point of impact is a very rigid structure tied into the main cage (like the drivers door area). In the T-bone scenario you described, the big difference will be in how the front of the impacting car is built, not the weight.

 

Thats a great explanation 1-crew. With all that being said, which car would you rather be in?

 

I prefer the tank, even if they are both safely constructed.

 

Do you have an answer to this: Are there any other classes (anywhere) that have 6-800 lbs of difference in cars running on the track at the same time?

[1-Crew]

http://www.winnemuccaregionalraceway.com/new_page_9.htm

1000+ lb delta (1 lb/cc, 2600 cc max., no minimum weight)

www.casperspeedway.net/MINI%20STOCK%20RULES.doc

700+ lb delta (1 lb/cc, no minimum)

http://www.carawayspeedway.com/Rules%20For...eb/ms_rules.pdf

600 lb delta

http://www.thompsonspeedway.com/rules/2008...iStockRules.htm

400 lbs delta

http://www.stateparkspeedway.com/ministockrules.htm

350 lb delta

 

Just a few examples. Because of the big difference in engine size in mini stock or mini modified classes, it is more the norm than the exception..

 

Question for you, if all cars had a 2300 lb minimum, would anyone build a 1600cc car?

[HiTech]

300 POUND MAN RUNNING AT FULL SPEED HITS A 100 POUND MAN SQUARE ....WHO WOULD LOSE ..I WANT TO BE THAT 300 POUND MAN AT THAT MOMENT ...100 POUND MAN HITS 300 POUND MAN SQUARE .. WHO WANTS TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER ..I KNOW WHICH ONE I WANT TO BE ...

[1-Crew]

I want to be the one in the stands eating popcorn saying "dang, that's gonna hurt tomorrow"..

[txtwister]

http://www.winnemuccaregionalraceway.com/new_page_9.htm

1000+ lb delta (1 lb/cc, 2600 cc max., no minimum weight)

www.casperspeedway.net/MINI%20STOCK%20RULES.doc

700+ lb delta (1 lb/cc, no minimum)

http://www.carawayspeedway.com/Rules%20For...eb/ms_rules.pdf

600 lb delta

http://www.thompsonspeedway.com/rules/2008...iStockRules.htm

400 lbs delta

http://www.stateparkspeedway.com/ministockrules.htm

350 lb delta

 

Just a few examples. Because of the big difference in engine size in mini stock or mini modified classes, it is more the norm than the exception..

 

Question for you, if all cars had a 2300 lb minimum, would anyone build a 1600cc car?

 

lol.....3 of these class rules state a mimimum weight of 2100 lbs, and the first one is an all rear wheel drive class.

 

some weight difference is to be expected and necessary for equal competition. i just think that 800 lbs is forcing it, though it is working for the tps.

 

to answer your question, no , it would not be logical to build a 2300lb 1600cc car and i never said all cars should weigh 2300 lbs.

 

now, if you would,answer the question i asked earlier. Which car would you rather be in, in a collision. The 2500 lb car or the 1750 lb car?

 

For the record, i personally wouldnt build anything but a Ford. We have had great success with it. Now some of the pro4's build rear wheel drive vw's and hondas and that seems to work pretty well.

The problem is that when someone starts dominating, (tps), then they get penalized. Just doesn't seem right, but im not a TPS driver so my opinion is only that.

[97car]

Got news for you guys, I weighed the cars and there is no 800 lb difference in the weight now since we weigh with driver, when you ran there may have been since we weighed without driver then.

[txtwister]

Got news for you guys, I weighed the cars and there is no 800 lb difference in the weight now since we weigh with driver, when you ran there may have been since we weighed without driver then.

 

Weighing with driver has nothing to do with it.

 

We always weighed with driver. The conversation is based upon the 2300lb R&D rule going away. which would make a tube chasis rear wheel drive 2300 with an arca head weigh somewhere around 2550 lbs.(with only 54% allowable left side wieght.

 

Our last season (06) my stock chasis rear wheel drive had to weigh a mimimum of 2444. I believe it was that way until the start of the 08 season when TPS made the "R&D" rule which allowed all rear wheel drive cars to weigh a minimum of 2300 lbs, which i dont think will last very long, especially if someone maximizes the car.

[97car]

No it wasn't until about 03 or 04 that we started weighing with the driver. Stock chassis has a 5% weight break, in 06 the iron heads got a 100 LB weight break, until this year. My point is there is not a 800 LB difference total in this class. You can calculate the weights, but that does not mean that their car can get down to that weight and even the ones that have the lower weight allowed often run more in order to keep the car balance for handling. Not picking, but even Lalo built as light as he could for Rico a iron head car and if I remember right it only had to weigh in the 2100 or low 2200 lb range back then.