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TPS recap and results at THR, 6/19/04


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cRt,

 

Please refer to the list that Mr. Upchurch prepared. You will see that Donnie Moore was a TPS race winner in 2002 and ran the full 2003 schedule in a Scirocco with good results, but no wins. Bill LaBarge did not win in 2002, but won three TPS events in 2003. Both of these teams have lots of experience and success and it doesn't take either of them long to put a new car up front.

 

Nick Holt

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[Rules Change Rationale: After two races and one practice, experience on cars equipped with 34mm restrictor plates indicates excessive engine wear due to possible over restriction. During the past period of 38mm plate experience, wear not as prevalent. Therefore, the 38mm plate under the 500cfm may again be used, but with a left side weight percentage reduction listed below:] Effective May 1st.

 

[ALL THE OTHER TOP FORDS ARE BROKE ] from Topdog

 

Yea when you have to spend almost $5000 to get two engines out the shop because of rule change last year with NO research involed. I know racing is not cheap but when the cause is from lets try an even smaller restrictor plate on the Fords. That is when it becomes a problem. I still remember the saying we need to slow the fords down .2 of a second so we are going to try a 34X34 restritor plate and what do you know 3 engines blow within a 3 day period with only 2 races w/34X34 on them!! We talked to Esslinger see last sentence, Race Engineering, and Racer Walsh all said the same thing will have to dyno motors and go to a complete lightweight rotating assemble to with stand the pre detonation caused by such a small restritor plate. You would have to adjust the timing so far back these cars would not even run or idle. Esslinger said they didn't what to tell us because they did not know of any racing series that ran that small of the restritor plate on there Aluminum Head.

 

No apology was said or someone saying they made a mistake. Too late now the damage has been done.

 

Luckly we called #26 car and informed of the problems we had and he was able to save his engine before his went. Keep it up the good work, your finishing races and in the championship hunt. You never know what could happen. From your stats this year, I'll agree w/plate your racing for 3rd or 4th and w/o plate you can compete for the win. So I understand the all the posts a little better now. It's not fun getting beat when you have run a restrictor plate and all the other cars have full throttle or option of the same Holley 500 carb in the TPS rules w/o plate.

 

[but when the Scirocco teams were doing all the complaining about the Fords, I wouldn't give them a thing until they showed me they were up to their handling potential under the existing rules. It wasn't until three of four of the the non-Ford teams maxed out their performance potential that we changed the carb rules to back down the Mustangs. ] From Nick Holt

 

Your right Nick the fords have maxed out there potential handling and power wise. The scirocco teams that were complaing haven't maxed out there power potential unless they are running the all Eurospec racing components like:

 

http://www.eurospecsport.com/euro8vhead.htm

 

This is the Esslinger of VW racing.

 

I don't understand why people keep say the Fords have dominated the last few years, ONLY 1 FORD has won a championship. Anybody can win a race here and there but it takes alot of work to win a season long championship.

 

Good luck Donnie, Lalo, Bill, and Sergio on the championship run for the rest of the season.

 

Everything will work its way out one way or another. It always does.

 

Anyways hope to see a good car count in SA and the #1, #2 cars out there.

Bryce TPS #1

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well from what i understand fords lose. even thu the three race r and d test proved that without a restrictor plate lalo's car. could run and race with some of the faster cars . there will be no changes to the rules .from how i hear it they say lalo's cars is not a true test of the fords . because they still feel there are faster fords out there that might show back up . and dominate the class. i guess they just dont think that maybe donnie and bill started doing there homework this year and got faster .hey maybe donnie is running the head dishman was talking about . so if you have a ford its either the 350 without restrictor or a 500 with the restrictor even thru esslinger says they cannt tell you how the 350 will work cause they have never run the dino on there head with the 350 well i hear i was a lot of the talk at the last drivers meeting of the pro sedans i didnt know someone speaking there mind could stir up so much trouble

 

crt racing

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I might be speaking out of turn here, but this is by far one of the toughest sanctions (TPS) to run. Front wheel drive, wheel rear drive, foreign, domestic, you name it. In my honest opinion, I don't know that the series will ever be as equal as everyone would like it to be. There is no way in the world that everyone would agree that things are ok and are happy with how they are running, unless you consistently finish in the top 3. Again, this is just my opinion and view on the situation. Everyone wants to win and everyone wants to have fun doing it. The series needs to be affordable, and I believe to some degree that it is right now. When Randy won the championship, it wasn't strictly motor and it wasn't strictly handling. Ok, maybe a little of both and a whole lot of drive, determination and heart, not to mention TEAMWORK. Those guys were on a mission and that was winning the championship. If you look at the stats from 2002, 12 wins that came from a Ford of 14 races. There is not a doubt in my mind that those 2 guys put in the most effort and got the most out of it also. Do I think the Fords had an advantage? Well, if you count doing your homework and making the most of thier cars, then I would have to say YES that they did have a big advantage. I think they set the standard for others to follow, but no one else was willing to go to that extreme. Again, don't shoot me guys, these are strictly my opinions. Randy had 7 wins in 2002, but those were 7 wins with a lot of orange paint on his rear bumper also. How can you compete with type of the qaulity that Leroy put into his cars? Tubular chassis, the best of everything, the list goes on and on and on. The minute you slow a group of cars down, the next minute there will be complaints. If it was one standard across the board, then it would be easy, put up or shut up. But its not, it many different types of cars trying to compete with different rules and my perspective is that it will never be fair and someone is always going to have an advantage. Peoples driving skills are always over looked and it is always about the rules and not the driver.

 

I think as technology allows us to get faster, we should be moving forward and not backwards, as far as speed and time is concerned on the track. I am not taking any shots at anyone with that statement, again, just my opinion. Would I love to see an all rear wheel (Pro 4) type series in Texas? You bet I would, and I am not saying that because LMS is running one on the west coast right now. How many people would like to go as fast as some of the V8 series if not faster, but with half the money? I am sure there are a lot of people that would love to see that and do it also. But, because it is only a 4 cylinder, most people would knock it and never give it a chance... until they tried it. I think a series like this in Texas would be successful, if poeple that are willing to make it work would put forth the needed effort and research to make it work. I have no idea how to do something like that and I take my hat off to Neil. He's been doing this a long time and I think his track record speaks for itself. Ok, I think my fingers have just fallen off. :D

 

Tim

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cRt,

so if you have a ford its either the 350 without restrictor or a 500 with the restrictor even thru esslinger says they cannt tell you how the 350 will work cause they have never run the dino on there head with the 350

 

I'm not sure where you get your information, Steven, but that statement is Just plain not true, Steven. One of the carbs that Esslinger recommends for their heads is perfectly legal for any competitor in TPS to run - the 38x38mm Weber carb. I have talked to Esslinger when we were making carburetor decisions last season and they were emphatic that the 38mm Weber is one of their preferred carburetors. It is even listed on their website. This is the carburetor that the majority of the TPS cars run because it seems to be the perfect size for 4-cyl applications.

 

To summarize, the Fords equiped like Lalo's Ford are permitted to run the 38x38mm Weber, the 350 CFM Holley, or the 500 CFM Holley with a 38mm restrictor plate. And one of these options is even recommended by Esslinger.

 

I think it's great that you lobby so hard for your freind, but please try to keep things factual.

 

Nick Holt

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Tim,

Would I love to see an all rear wheel (Pro 4) type series in Texas? You bet I would, and I am not saying that because LMS is running one on the west coast right now. How many people would like to go as fast as some of the V8 series, if not faster, but with half the money? I am sure there are a lot of poeple that would love to see that and do it also. But, because it is only a 4 cylinder, most people would knock it... until they tried it. I think as series like this in Texas would be successful, if poeple that are willing to make it work would put forth the needed effort and research to make it work. I have no idea how to do something like that and I take my hat off to Neil. He's been doing this a long time and I think his track record speaks for itself.

 

Last season I approached Neil with a proposal very similar to the one you are suggesting. But with only a couple of cars that even come close to Pro4 specs here in Texas (Randy Lee's Pro4 and the two Leroy Farmer-built Mustangs) and with only the Lee Motorsports Pro4 car as a "for-sure" base, he wisely decided to let someone else put that series together. I even had a name picked out - Texas Mini Late Model Series (TMLMS).

 

Way back in the 70's, Ricci Ware used to preach that the future of stock car racing was in the 4-cylinder cars. And he had a pretty good field of Mini Stock cars that ran both at Pan American and Paramount (Longhorn) back then. I tend to agree with Ricci on this, but the problem is in getting such a class started.

 

Perhaps the Lee family could organize and run such a series. I know I would love to do it, but I have my hands full with my duties here on TSZ and at Thunder Hill Raceway.

 

Nick Holt

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I think anything is possible, and having someone like you organize and run such a series would be awesome. I never count anything out, especially when it comes to Dad (Ronnie Lee). When Dad originally started building the Pro-4 they are currently running, he was indeed building it for TPS. Once he got focused and started, that was it. I don't think a Texas series would have to be that extreme as the West Coast series, but with a 2000lb car and a good setup, that is bound to be fast. I know Dad would love to have Randy run some intermission shows for the local Texas tracks so people could see how fast they really are, but I am not sure how much he has persued it. I think if people knew more about them and got caught up on what the potential of the Pr0-4's are, the series would be a success. Like any new series, the research and effort would have to be 100% for it to succeed. I know people say no more touring series in Texas, blah blah blah, but this wouldn't be just another touring series in my opinion. If you together a series that people would build to, it would be great. With a tweak here and there, how many TPS RWD cars could run is series like that? I know of at least 4.

 

Tim

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nick just to imform you i ran the weber for years and it doesnt perform no where half as good as the holly 350 or 500 for years our rules wouldnt let us run the 350 or 500 so all we had to work with was the weber and roy rogers at L & L was during all of my work on them .

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cRt,

nick just to imform you i ran the weber for years and it doesnt perform no where half as good as the holly 350 or 500 for years our rules wouldnt let us run the 350 or 500 so all we had to work with was the weber and roy rogers at L & L was during all of my work on them .

 

The Weber carburetor you recall has to be the old 32mm x 36mm progressive Weber carburetor that TPS ran for several years before going to the new 38x38 Weber a couple of years ago.

 

The new 38x38 Weber is far superior to the old 32x36 Weber that you recall. In fact, the new Weber 38x38mm compares very favorably to the 350 Holley but it does not quite measure up to the Holley 500 in terms of flow.

 

I hope this clears up any confusion.

 

Nick Holt

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The following is from Earl Parker II, he is a professional carb tuner with many years of experience at all levels of racing, including Winston Cup.

 

Question: In your opinion is the Holley 500 a better carburetor to run on a 2300 that turns around 8000 rpm or would another one be better?

 

"If I had complete freedom of choice in carburetion, I would select the smallest air flow capacity carburetor that would just start to become a limitation at the point where I had to close the throttle to enter the turn. That way you'll realize the highest possible air velocity in the venturis (which translates into maximum acceleration) consistent with the air flow capacity required for maximum straight away performance.

 

I practical terms, on a 1/4 to 3/8 mile track I would lean towards one of the Holley 5200 series carburetors. On a 3/8 to 1/2 mile track a Holley 7448 350 cfm model would likely be OK. In most circumstances I've seen a Holley 4412 500 cfm carburetor has too much air flow capacity to provide maximum acceleration. In just about every case I have encountered, racers that have to use the 4412 would rather use the 7448, even if an engine is fairly extensively modified."

 

More information here: http://www.parkercarburetion.com/index.html

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SO IF THE 500 IS NOT RECOMENDED TO RUN ON THE 2300 BECAUSE IT DOESNT PERFORM AS GOOD AS THE OTHERS . THEN WHY NOT LET US RUN IT WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS .

Steven,

 

2300 cc Fords are allowed to use the Holley 500 as long as they are running stock heads. Those 2300 Fords running aftermarket Esslinger heads can use the 500 Holley with a 38mm restrictor plate.

 

The TPS rules are not a secret document. Their rules are published on the Texas Pro Sedan website http://www.texasprosedans.com/.

 

Nick Holt

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