NickHolt Posted December 27, 2010 Report Share Posted December 27, 2010 Actually, this thread - along with another thread from a year or two back - has been very informative, if somewhat confusing. I'm hoping someone will take Mr. Bishop up on his offer to be a test case. If not, then perhaps someone find out where would be most effective place to direct a campaign to get the rules straightened out for the racing community. I know the "power of the press" we have here at LSS isn't much, but sometimes that's all it takes. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted December 28, 2010 Report Share Posted December 28, 2010 Direct-Flo (why don't we all have real names? sigh) GREAT link - pretty much the same summation of code that I have prepared. And again - it has NOTHING to do with your tax return filing. It's weight - INTERSTATE commerce triggers at 10,001 lbs (for veh registration) and intrastate (commerce not consideration) triggers at 26,001 for licensing. However you can screw up all arguments you HAVE in your tax return filing by representing your interest wrong if you get a ticket.... One of our members gave us a jewel - it does not matter what the officer thinks, what the manufacturer advertises on their web site, what the pillar sticker says etc. etc. State law defines the registration receipt as prima facia evidence of weight ratings. PULL YOURS OUT AND LOOK. Take the GVWR of the tow veh add the gvwr of the trailer (if less than 10,000 trailer - NO PROBLEM) - if combined is less than 26,001 - thats all you have to show the judge. If your registration DOES have GCWR - you must use that - but this rating has not yet filtered down all the way to all states (ca, VA, and DC require it - maybe others) or manufacturers (Ford does it on program vehicles - fleets and rentals etc.). Then if an officer wants to write it up - take it with a smile and get it dismissed with your prima facia! If towing across state lines less than 10,000 total is fine - over that needs the registration commercial - if under 26,000 (AND trailer over 10k) this still can be operated with a c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Hogan Racing Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 How about this one, a racer from Albuquerque is in route to Texas Motor Speedway with an F350 and 32 ft gooseneck race trailer, he is legal in New Mexico and just after he crosses the border he gets pulled over by DPS. They gave him a warning and he continued on. About 30 minutes later he gets pulled over again and this guy wasn't as nice when he found that he had already received a warning and was continuing on to Ft. Worth. He was told that if he moved that vehicle again without a CDL he would impound the rig. They had to call a friend in New Mexico with a CDL to come drive the rig back across the border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRfan Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 Kinda makes you think twice about that HD truck and stacker doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Hogan Racing Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 Here ya go... This was in Junction, Texas Oh and by the way there is some justice in all this. A DPS Trooper and two other sets of truck pulling trucks pulled over @ Ralph Fair & IH-10 near San Antonio. I saw one like that once driving through Houston only it had another rusty Toyota truck hanging out of the back of the box truck and had an engine chained down in the bed of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted December 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 more grist for the mill.... http://classicfunnycarboard.com/CFB/index.php?topic=17229.15 there's a page 3 after this. jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I kinda get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing we are not in the doo doo alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProTree Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 seems like it's heating up in several states with the racing rigs.i'll see if i can find one of the Carolina Drag racing websites where they had a big discussion going on about this same topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boernebullet Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2009/Bills/House/PDF/H69v1.pdf Actually this Bill became effective in North Carolina in July 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2009/Bills/House/PDF/H69v1.pdf Actually this Bill became effective in North Carolina in July 2009 The people in North Carolina obviously support their racers. Gotta love that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 The people in North Carolina obviously support their racers. Gotta love that. Thats because many years ago the governing body for the state realized that stock cars racing brought revenue to the state. What a concept. Some small cities and towns feel the same way due to the boost in there economy (ie. pensacola) but it is fighting a loosing battle to believe that will happen in Texas. This state always has been a stick and ball state, not sure about the future. Id bet my paycheck that if college football teams traveled with 40 foot trailers, thing would be different here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LM-RACER-20 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Been away for a while. LOL.. Anyways, it really doesnt matter what you are driving or pulling. IF you use the haul vehicle, trailer, race car or your personal pink caddy to sell avon for the purpose of making money, you are required to have a CDL and carry commercial insurance. You have just become a for profit business. Even though we spend many thousands more each year on racing than we will ever make, they dont care. We just run a crappy business that we are stupid enough to keep losing money on. I have my company name on the back of my truck. I use it for my business and it is now supposed to have commercial insurance. Even thigh it is in my personal name. I dont have the insurance though, and wont be getting any. I haul a gooseneck work trailer and sometimes pull a tractor with it and aslo a dump trailer. They need to be commercially titled and insured. They arent. I had DPS pull me over with my dump trailer on the toll road last year. He only gave me warnings. But I was told since it was used for work, then I needed all these things as well as the trailer being inspected for commercial use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LM-RACER-20 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Oh, and on the big corperate teams question. I dont think they get messed with a lot really. These guys are obviously doing it for money and have millions invested and millions given to them in sponsorships. I am sure the local law inforcement assumes that they would spend a little money and be legal with the law. So it might be a waste of thier time to pull them over for just checking paperwork. Where little people like us spend all we have on the car and really cant afford the expense of commerial paperwork. So we get checked more often. And putting " not for hire " or " private coach " doesnt do anything to get you around the law as they see it. And it may give them more reason to pull you over. This was also discussed in a past issue of circle track, or NHRA I think. Some racing magazine a year or two back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRfan Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 The thing about the NASCAR teams and the like they are full on semi rigs and have to stop at weigh stations and get checked there sometimes more than once a day. So they don't get stopped on the side of the road by troopers. And last time this topic was discussed I posted my opinion that I think rvs of certain size should be in the same boat. Anybody hauling over 26000 lbs should have to prove they can handle that load. some goth wheel/travel trailed are as big and heavy as some of our race trailers. I think the weight is more the issue with the police not wjryher or not is is "commercial." and it's not actually a commercial liscenced it is a class a or b. Again jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Anyways, it really doesnt matter what you are driving or pulling. IF you use the haul vehicle, trailer, race car or your personal pink caddy to sell avon for the purpose of making money, you are required to have a CDL and carry commercial insurance. You have just become a for profit business. Hmmm - I drive an 02 caddy registered in the company name. I do have comm insurance - would be dumb not to - risk is too great. However I disagree with needing a commercial license or registration. the fed and state codes specifically set registration requirements for interstate at 10,001+ lbs and state code sets intrastate registration and licensing at 26001 lbs. Where in the code does it state anything less? Please cite. i called the county clerk and requested a commercial registration for my BEIGE caddy - I was re-registering the 57 with antique plates anyway - and wanted to know what I needed to also do the caddy - was told it was not needed. maybe the code specs PINK caddys need commercial? Contribution or reception from the financial side of commerce does not automatically create a "for profit business" - I would LOVE to have a cite stating so to defend clients who were deemed not for profit and had to suspend losses simply because they invoke a tariff on their commercial use - don't confuse hobby and not for profit business. And especially don't confuse not for profit business and ordinary business! In the context of defining a commercial vehicle - don't confuse business with commerce. While "business" refers to the value-creating activities of an organization for profit, commerce means the whole system of an economy that constitutes an environment for business. A tare value is created by the weight of the vehicle (or more precisely the GROSS weight minus the empty weight) - the tare as a subset of commerce is what creates the tariff (some of these codes have not been touched in a few years - the biggest land yacht out there USED to come in under the 10,000 so was NOT able to carry a "cargo", another subset of commerce per se) - in this case the tariff is only extra regulation (and fees to cover the expense of the added oversight) of the vehicle and operator - austensibly to make safer driving but also to "protect" the government interest in their road expenditures! The property being transported may not be positive to the profits of your business - but most certainly IS to commerce! Even as a PERSON NOT IN BUSINESS and enjoying a hobby - the vehicle becomes commercial when it's contribution to commerce (and trade*) is a weight over the code stated values and circumstance and is not specifically EXCLUDED by such as RV, passenger only, farm and other exclusions... Some of the folks I have seen toting all that extra road wearing weight around need MORE than just a ticket. *most state constitutions allow taxation and\or regulation at the trade level as well, with far less voter input and control than taxes at the individual level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 I was given the attached Flow Chart by a DPS license and weight trooper friend of mine. It's a tool they use to determine whether or not a CDL is required unde 522.041 of the Texas Transportation Code. I hope it's visible in the attachment. I wanted to share it in the event that it might clear up any confusion. You'll notice that it reminds the reader at the bottom of the page that exemptions are found in section 522.004. We discussed those earlier in this thread, particularly the RV exemption. I was hoping this chart would clarify that issue some, but it really doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Awesome dude! Thanks - I was working a flow chart in the same nature but was having extreme difficulty laying it out so the flow lines did not cross! Pay attention to the note regarding if gvwr can not be determined - I believe this conflicts with registration being prima facia evidence - but then this is for enforcement (prob cause to write a ticket) vs evidence presented to court! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted January 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 I was given the attached Flow Chart by a DPS license and weight trooper friend of mine. It's a tool they use to determine whether or not a CDL is required unde 522.041 of the Texas Transportation Code. HUMOR---> I'm going to get a ramp door size version of this chart and put it on the back of my trailer jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Jay, you crack me up......but it might not be a bad idea. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Jay, you crack me up......but it might not be a bad idea. LOL DO IT!!! LOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted January 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 I started this thread a month/144 posts/6 pages ago with a simple question... "Exactly"...what is the law? This flow chart comes pretty close to answering that on the weights and measures side of the house but the "are you paid/are you engaged in commerce/are you a pro?" part of the enforcement is still a pretty gray issue. jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 This flow chart comes pretty close to answering that on the weights and measures side of the house but the "are you paid/are you engaged in commerce/are you a pro?" part of the enforcement is still a pretty gray issue. jay That is not part of the CDL equation. It's about weight, hazardous materials, and number of passengers. By the way, if you carry your fuel with you, carry it in containers no larger than 8 gallon capacity to avoid the HAZMAT portion of the CDL laws. That tidbit came from the same Trooper who was kind enough to give me this chart today. He said you can carry as many as you like, but the containers must be no larger than 8 gallon capacity. He specifically mentioned racers carrying the 55 gallon drums and that they would need the CDL when carrying that cargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Wow Chase! That's awsome! Better explanation than all 6 pages. If you'd have posted this 6 pages ago I could have saved about an hr of reading!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Wow Chase! That's awsome! Better explanation than all 6 pages. If you'd have posted this 6 pages ago I could have saved about an hr of reading!!!! I know Rusty. Been trying to get my hands on it for 3 weeks. Just couldn't get together with the guy who had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legfixr Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 A couple of links for you all to read and digest yourself. I won't add my interpretation at this point. I will say that there are some incorrect assumptions in this thread. Definitions - scroll down to 4 and 5: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs...522.htm#522.003 Applicability - may want to read the RV exception: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs...522.htm#522.004 Thanks Chase, clear as mud. So did I just misunderstand or is it saying a tow "vehicle of over 10k AND a trailer of over 26k? or just a trailer over 26k regardless of tow vehicle? Because it seems to have seperated the two. man , I/m just going to avoid KATY. TX. Never liked it much anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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