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"Exactly"...what is the law?


jracer98

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Cool stuff...

 

A vehicle that occasionally transports personal property to and from a closed-course motorsport facility, as defined in s. 549.09(1)(a), is not a commercial motor vehicle if the use is not for profit and corporate sponsorship is not involved. As used in this subsection, the term "corporate sponsorship" means a payment, donation, gratuity, in-kind service, or other benefit provided to or derived by a person in relation to the underlying activity, other than the display of product or corporate names, logos, or other graphic information on the property being transported.

 

Other than seems to me to be a killer - just displaying your sponsers name - you fit the exclusion. Sponser provides ONLY money for fender you get exclusion - sponser provides money for fender AND you get a percentage of sales or (or are sponser itself - advertising YOUR own company) you don't. Put sponser on TRAILER and you don't get exemption. Accept a 50 contingency from Racer Supply Company you may not (contigency is not just for displaying - it is for position as well). ??? Hmmmm

 

other than that little bit of confusion this is exactly what we need to hammer our state reps with...

 

 

I'm not a lawyer, I'm a golfer....but it seems to me that "they" were attempting to tailor their exculsion in a way that it applied only to "local racer me" but not to Joe Gibbs Racing if we were rolling down I4, side by side.

I'm not totally sure about the trailer logo thing...

 

jay

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Everything went pretty smooth until the Texas DPS officer asked him if he made any money, and his reply was " A little " and the troopers next words. " Well then your a pro and we need to look at everything "

 

 

LM-RACER-20,

 

In your opinion, what would have happened next if your friend's reply would have been," No, this is just my hobby. All in, a race weekend usually costs me about $500."

 

Thanks

 

jay

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You got some big ones brother!!!!!

naw - its all in fun... especially given that based on his previous post responses he IS looking out for us. Don't take much reading between the lines to see that.

 

Anyone who knows me knows I am one of the first to back our guys. But just like lawyers - there ARE and always will be good jokes in there.

 

Yea that makes sense Jay, but you know that how it gets enforced is not always what the legislature intended. Even with the best of intentions...

 

Chase - your lucky - our city budget ain't very rosy at all right now. Send some of those grants and seizure money our way.

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there is defination and compliance with the law as it exists "today"....

 

and there is political action that can be taken to shape what the law is "tomorrow"...

 

here is what they changed the law to in Florida. I would imagine that this was a combined effort between the racers and the tracks.

 

 

http://laws.flrules.org/files/Ch_2008-179.pdf

 

 

jay

 

That law in Florida came about after Kathy Smith (Casey's Mom) spent untold hours on the phone to Flroida after this all came up at the Pensacola weigh station a few years ago.

her efforts gor the harassment stopped, and she got all the way to the Governor's ear. Their stand on the deal was they completely understood how much racing (like the Derby) brings to the Florida economy. Thus the clarification on Florida law.

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Yea that makes sense Jay, but you know that how it gets enforced is not always what the legislature intended. Even with the best of intentions...

 

Agree. I'm impressed with the "open minded-ness" of their lawmakers. They could see that there were some unintended consequences being felt by voter/racers and voter/small businesses.

 

jay

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sounds like to me the best thing might be to do is get a travel trailer, gut it, and put the race car in it.

just have to make manetic sponsor signs ....peel off for the haul///stick em back on at the track ....did that with our company signs.on my truck back in the early 80.s kept my truck from being scam hit ........poeple dont want to get into a wreck if the truck is plain .....

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I was so hoping this thread was dead.....

Why - do you have anything to gain from lack of knowledge\planning? Such as budget increases from ticket income?

 

:lol::lol:

 

No, just have grown tired of the nonsense. Carry on. My budget will be just fine regardless. But thanks for asking.

 

LMAO!! Good comeback Chase! :lol:

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simple rule of thumb, if everything you are hauling and pulling ( truck, trailer, race car, tires, fuel, jack, on and on ) weigh's more than 26000lbs, and you have any advertisement what so ever, including and not limited to a s t p sticker on your tow vehicle, trailer, or what ever, it all depends on the officer that pulled you over as to wether he or she writes you or not, by the way, the best defence is to be polite and have all your documents ready for them to view, including insurance and drivers licence. please, don't drink and drive !!! :ph34r:

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It seems to be the worst when you cross state lines.

...

 

Attorney informed me a letter of opinion would A) be limited only to whatever specific case facts are presented and B) would have to be submitted by a DA, Chief of Police or other head of a governement body or organazation directly representative of the "people". So we may not get insight into what the AG says or thinks. However we are still drafting a request just in case we can figgure out a way to get it done - and have it apply roughly enough to help our varying circumstances....!

 

Haven't weighed in on this, but If you get it put it together, I can probably submit to the AG office. If I can't get it done before January 15, then I can probably get someone else to do it. I know a few who can do it.

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It seems to be the worst when you cross state lines.

...

 

Attorney informed me a letter of opinion would A) be limited only to whatever specific case facts are presented and B) would have to be submitted by a DA, Chief of Police or other head of a governement body or organazation directly representative of the "people". So we may not get insight into what the AG says or thinks. However we are still drafting a request just in case we can figgure out a way to get it done - and have it apply roughly enough to help our varying circumstances....!

 

Haven't weighed in on this, but If you get it put it together, I can probably submit to the AG office. If I can't get it done before January 15, then I can probably get someone else to do it. I know a few who can do it.

I have numerous relevant cites laid out (state and fed in both trans and commerce code), an editable case explanation, good argument and a very down to earthsummataion - but still lack a specific case as the ones that have been shared with me do not want to have their name used in a test case!

 

Ya'll do realize this issue (non standard enforcement) effects everyone who tows anything with a trailer - more so if crossing state lines? this is my friends who tow their jeeps to Moab, racers, motocrossers, tex milers, big bend ralliers, car shows - etc.

 

Begging for a volunteer!

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Beings that I have towed from coast to coast I guess I have broken a law in every state along the way for not having a CDL. So beit. I'll get one. Im just thankful I was never pulled over. I am curious about how this misconception of being or not being profitable affects trailers. Approx 30 Nascar teams and maybe 10-15 NHRA teams use truck-trailer combinations to take "show cars" to dealerships and mall all across the country. These people who do this are doing this for a job. Some sell souvenirs and some dont sell anything. Simpson Race Products (back in 1999) had a Ford F-550 and a 48' gooseneck that traveled from race to race and even to New Braunsfels a time or two. The driver of that rig was told when stopping in a weigh station to go across the scales that since that particular rig was not selling to the public that it was considered private and did not need to go across the scales. I was that driver. Now maybe it was because 50 other Nascar haulers were going thru there at the same time or maybe the officer was being nice or maybe he didnt care. Later that same year I know of a 53' featherlite trailer hauling two busch cars to las vegas went across the scales in new mexico and was totaled in excess of 83,000 pounds. Anyone know the significance of that? The officer asked whats in the trailer (as it was all black and no decals), the reply was two race cars headed to the nascar race in vegas. The reply was short, he said "good luck". Again I was the driver. It seems that laws are enforced at the discretion of the officers on site. Both instances I mentioned should of had a different result due to the facts, but I was lucky, and in one particular case, just plain ignorant of the weight limit. Now everybody on this forum has gotten away with something that the police could of ticketed you for, everybody has been speeding when coming over the hill you see the police car sitting there with his radar gun out the window and you slow down and think "damn he got me" and then to realize he wasnt after you. Its simple folks, if you need a cdl, get one. If your rig needs certain decals declaring certain things, get it. You cant complain that police arent enforcing laws and then complain when your caught in violation of one and get caught. I dont particularly care for needing a CDL to drive my set-up 15 miles to my local track but if thats the law, then thats the law! It was easy for me about a month ago to tell myself, "im just going 15 miles, i dont need to get the licence. I havent been pulled over all this time." And then to think of the fine if I do, well, there goes the rest of my season. Its not worth the chance.

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Beings that I have towed from coast to coast I guess I have broken a law in every state along the way for not having a CDL. So beit. I'll get one. Im just thankful I was never pulled over. I am curious about how this misconception of being or not being profitable affects trailers. Approx 30 Nascar teams and maybe 10-15 NHRA teams use truck-trailer combinations to take "show cars" to dealerships and mall all across the country. These people who do this are doing this for a job. Some sell souvenirs and some dont sell anything. Simpson Race Products (back in 1999) had a Ford F-550 and a 48' gooseneck that traveled from race to race and even to New Braunsfels a time or two. The driver of that rig was told when stopping in a weigh station to go across the scales that since that particular rig was not selling to the public that it was considered private and did not need to go across the scales. I was that driver. Now maybe it was because 50 other Nascar haulers were going thru there at the same time or maybe the officer was being nice or maybe he didnt care. Later that same year I know of a 53' featherlite trailer hauling two busch cars to las vegas went across the scales in new mexico and was totaled in excess of 83,000 pounds. Anyone know the significance of that? The officer asked whats in the trailer (as it was all black and no decals), the reply was two race cars headed to the nascar race in vegas. The reply was short, he said "good luck". Again I was the driver. It seems that laws are enforced at the discretion of the officers on site. Both instances I mentioned should of had a different result due to the facts, but I was lucky, and in one particular case, just plain ignorant of the weight limit. Now everybody on this forum has gotten away with something that the police could of ticketed you for, everybody has been speeding when coming over the hill you see the police car sitting there with his radar gun out the window and you slow down and think "damn he got me" and then to realize he wasnt after you. Its simple folks, if you need a cdl, get one. If your rig needs certain decals declaring certain things, get it. You cant complain that police arent enforcing laws and then complain when your caught in violation of one and get caught. I dont particularly care for needing a CDL to drive my set-up 15 miles to my local track but if thats the law, then thats the law! It was easy for me about a month ago to tell myself, "im just going 15 miles, i dont need to get the licence. I havent been pulled over all this time." And then to think of the fine if I do, well, there goes the rest of my season. Its not worth the chance.

Well stated - precisely why I am attempting to sort out and present in flow chart the decisions that need addressed before you are sitting at the side of the road in a flood of red and blue.

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I'm 20,000 on 26,001. I would think that if people did a really strict accounting of all relevant expenses, even the champion would be in the red for the year (after year end maintenance and depreciation), so it isn't a business and it isn't profitable at the hardscrable Saturday night racer level.

 

Therefore, my expection is to be allowed to haul my stuff around and play with it in the same way every guy with a bass boat does.....WITHOUT HASSLE.

 

I am not really good at mindless compliance. The law was changed in Florida...not just blindly followed BAAAA....BAAAA ;)

 

just my opinion

 

jay

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My old lady sells avon and she hauls it in her pink caddy. That does not make it a commercial vehicle. Trucks hauling race cars that exceed the weight or length requirements will require a CDL. Generally speaking, Troopers have left people alone when they haul their race car with their RV. They were kind enough to figure that the racer was using his RV (toterhome) for temporary housing since it was fully self contained (restroom, water, stove, frig, bed). A few racers have probably pushed the envelope a little far and plastered sponsors decals all over their trailers. Now the troopers are chasing them because for the most part, the trucking industry has brought most of the trucks on the road up to standards, so they need someone to chase.

 

This exemption has been used for years but may be in jeopardy if someone pressed the issue for a ruling with a state or federal government agency. I dont think Obama is a racer, so chasing people hauling race cars may create jobs. Believe it or not, this is not an accounting issue. They can change the rule, regulations or laws to fit whatever it is that they want, at anytime.

 

By the way, I saw Brett Favre hauling a football in his truck, is he violating the law?

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I'm 20,000 on 26,001. I would think that if people did a really strict accounting of all relevant expenses, even the champion would be in the red for the year (after year end maintenance and depreciation), so it isn't a business and it isn't profitable at the hardscrable Saturday night racer level.

 

Therefore, my expection is to be allowed to haul my stuff around and play with it in the same way every guy with a bass boat does.....WITHOUT HASSLE.

 

I am not really good at mindless compliance. The law was changed in Florida...not just blindly followed BAAAA....BAAAA ;)

 

just my opinion

 

jay

Close - but lets define a few things. Yes we would normally start at the state level - but for a little clarity lets dispell a business vs non business myth and look at the tax planning first. CFR (code of federal regulations) defines income as "ALL income from whatever source unless specifically exempted by law" - and sets taxability subject to certain deductions and exemptions. That means that whether you recieve 600 for a main event win, 400 from a sponsership, 100 for a contigency etc - it MUST be reported on your tax return. there is NO code that allows you to net it (place only the net amount of gross-expenses) without reporting the expenses used to derive the net. there are basically three ways to accomodate this.

1. Hobby Activity. Gross monies recieved report on line 21 form 1040. Expenses may be claimed on Schedule A as an itemized deduction up to ZERO - can NOT go into a loss and unused expenses DO NOT carry forward. This is NOT the most advantageous way - lets say you sell your wheels to racer X - you paid 500 but sell them for 400 - you put 500 on line 21 - and yet you do not itemise. You pay tax on the 400 even though you really saw a loss - and bad news when you dispose of the entire activity! The larger the cash flow - the less desireable this is.

2. Not for Profit Business (DO NOT CONFUSE NOT FOR PROFIT WITH NON PROFIT!!). All gross monies go on schedule C (or 1065, 1120s to pass net to the individual's sched E), from C or E the NET amount goes to the 1040. By revenue procedure (IRS operating policy) all business activities are initially considered for profit - until a five year look back shows no profit in 3 of the past five years with year 3 being the first. In a not for profit all gross is reported, all expenses claimed in a specific order UP TO A ZERO INCOME - it can not go into a loss deducted against other activities - unused expenses are suspended until such time as there IS a profit or until the activity is fully disposed of.

3. For Profit Business. All gross monies go on schedule C (or 1065, 1120s to pass net to the individual's sched E), from C or E the NET amount goes to the 1040. if there is profit in two of the first five - it's automatically deemed a profit with no further "testing" by the IRS. However it CAN be a for profit - if it can be demonstrated that the profits are to be realized later. In a for profit all gross is repoted, all expenses claimed in a specific order AND- it can go into a loss deducted against other activities. Thats an important distinction to make if audited - if the IRS says it is NOT a for profit - they will try to call it hobby and dissallow the expenses - but you want it to be a NOT for profit business! you can SUSPEND the expenses they are still there to reduce future incomes (and the entire loss can be claimed in year of disposition) - if they dissallow the expenses - they're gone forever!

What does this have to do with the veh code? Simple - fighting (or rolling over on) that ticket would be record - you can't be a business for the IRS and a Hobby for the ticket. Next we'll look at definition of commercial vehicle. Not suprisingly it has NOTHING to do with "business" or profitability - rather "commerce" hence the term commercial (otherwise the code would say business use vehicle much like the CFR does for expense deduction).

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My old lady sells avon and she hauls it in her pink caddy. That does not make it a commercial vehicle.

It could. For this we must look to state code first -

 

644.001. Texas Transportation code. In this chapter:

(1) "Commercial motor vehicle" means:

(A) a commercial motor vehicle as defined by 49 C.F.R. Section 390.5, if operated interstate; or

( B ) a commercial motor vehicle as defined by Section 548.001, if operated intrastate.

 

49 C.F.R. Section 390.5

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

 

Interstate commerce means trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States—

(1) Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);

(2) Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or

(3) Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States.

 

Intrastate commerce means any trade, traffic, or transportation in any State which is not described in the term “interstate commerce.”

 

548.001. Texas Transportation Code. In this chapter:

(1) "Commercial motor vehicle" means a self-propelled or towed vehicle, other than a farm vehicle with a gross weight, registered weight, or gross weight rating of less than 48,000 pounds, that is used on a public highway to transport passengers or cargo if:

(A) the vehicle, including a school activity bus as defined in Section 541.201, or combination of vehicles has a

gross weight, registered weight, or gross weight rating of more than 26,000 pounds;

 

1St read closely the definition of Commerce! Then look closely at the weights - the pink caddy SHOULD be safely under 10,000 lbs and would not be an issue inter or intra state! and notice profitability, business use etc IS NOWHERE in the defs! TRAFFIC, TRANSPORATION and TRADE. However - that does not truly define when commerce occurs - for that we have an entire discussion ready. You pay for the snowball derby by check from texas - your registration fees (trade) just became part of the Fla racing industry! Then you tow there (transportation) and people come watch the race (traffic). (yes same applies to bass boats and tournies - my guess is they have the same issue - just not as big a target - there are more bubba cops who fish than who race so they are likely to get bigger breaks from a strict interpretation)

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if you file your racing income and deduct for expence, your racing is a business, the feds already know what your doing, if your afraid of getting a fine for towing a racecar to the track, you have three options in order to not be fined, 1: get a wrecker for towing it with all the tdlr rules and regulations or what ever state that may apply, 2: get a txdot permit along with a cdl, drug testing, and follow all the dot rules, or 3: get a u.s. dot, you can do 48 states, follow all the u. s. dot rules along with drug testing and a log book, learn how to log your sleep hours or they will get you !!!

 

 

 

 

simple fix: just go racing and don't give them a reason to jack with you, most cases, you won't have a problem !!! :ph34r:

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