"Exactly"...what is the law?

[jwmbishop]

I guess the easiest solution is just to keep a box of doughnuts handy to win the local cop over....

[gundogC3]

I'm thinking......290 is sure looking good again!!!!

[jracer98]

returning to the discussion on inspections of trailers, I looked on the DPS site to see what it said. They had a list of inspection stations here in Dallas and I would say that the chart indicated that about 10% (maybe) did trailer inspections. I called 3 of them and they all said that they inspected trailers based on the gvwr tag on the trailer with the "need it" threshold was 4500lb

 

just fyi

 

jay

[jracer98]

Yes we did get several tickets some say $1500. some say closer to $5000. for no cdl etc... commercial vechicle enforcer says groos weight combined over 26001 and racing is a business in his eyes. tgried to explain it wasn't a business and he didn't care wether our trailer was recreational or not now we have to find out the laws and fight it. we have talked to several people here in florida this weekend and they have toters with stackers etc.. and because they have restrooms they are excempt and are considered RV. we also heard that when I go to the dmv to get a cdl that I can not get one cause they do not give cdl's for one ton trucks. I will be checking on this one. This guy sits in hays county outside of Katy. He talked about several racers already and I have spoken to one already and they did not get stopped yet, but he had info on them.

 

...then, in his point of view, every race car in/on a trailer is a "business". Did you get a sense that he would stop a primered drag race Camaro on an open trailer?--> or was it more about the gvwr and the "business" deal was just piling on?

Either way, I'm sorry this happened and suggest that people look into how the laws in Florida were changed relative to this topic.

 

jay

[rebelracewriter]

I believe it's called "selective enforcement"......That from a guy who no longer pulls a racecar around....but has been pulled over just for being in a red sports car, with long hair and non-local tags on more occasions than I care to count....

 

Funny(peculiar, not haha).....after hours of detainment, questioning and searching I've neve been "cited" for any of the "supposed" infractions that I was pulledover for.....Odd isn't it.....

[hray]

Chase,

In our case, we did convert the box to a RV (bathroom, bed and kitchen) so it was deemed to be titleable (is that a word?) as a RV. I had to take pictures of the inside and outside and a certified weight slip to the county license tag office. They changed the title from a Class 8 to a RV and issued a new title with the weight that is shown on the certified weight slip. As far as the trailer is concerned, the GVRW that is on the trailer (and the title) and which is the sum of the axle capacities is what was used to determine the tag cost and which is a 'do not exceed' as far as what you are licensed to carry.

Again, they told me the truck is a RV, so what it weighs is what you are licensed for. You are not required to have any special license to drive it. The trailer is licensed for it's GVRW and because it's over 4500lbs, it has to have a title, brakes and inspection. Since it is less than 26001lbs, no CDL is needed to pull it with a RV.

[Truck99]

Chase,

In our case, we did convert the box to a RV (bathroom, bed and kitchen) so it was deemed to be titleable (is that a word?) as a RV. I had to take pictures of the inside and outside and a certified weight slip to the county license tag office. They changed the title from a Class 8 to a RV and issued a new title with the weight that is shown on the certified weight slip. As far as the trailer is concerned, the GVRW that is on the trailer (and the title) and which is the sum of the axle capacities is what was used to determine the tag cost and which is a 'do not exceed' as far as what you are licensed to carry.

Again, they told me the truck is a RV, so what it weighs is what you are licensed for. You are not required to have any special license to drive it. The trailer is licensed for it's GVRW and because it's over 4500lbs, it has to have a title, brakes and inspection. Since it is less than 26001lbs, no CDL is needed to pull it with a RV.

 

Rusty, I agree.

[racer61]

Ok, I have yet another question. If my combination is over the 26,001 CGVWR and requires this CDL license, but yet I cannot take a CDL test in the vehicle its required to operate with, what is John Q Public suppose to do? Besides clean out the trailer and sell it cus this crap is gettin out of hand.

[neon14]

Ok, I have yet another question. If my combination is over the 26,001 CGVWR and requires this CDL license, but yet I cannot take a CDL test in the vehicle its required to operate with, what is John Q Public suppose to do? Besides clean out the trailer and sell it cus this crap is gettin out of hand.

 

Thats exactly what I was thinking.

[jwmbishop]

I asked our municipal judge (who is also a major car nut - so racing as well as towing for car shows perks his interest) what his thoughts were on the issue. He said the cop alleges you violated based on info he gathers at the scene - this can be from the registration run or the door pillar - or even from a chart provided by his department per their policy - OR worse, from his own personal beliefs. then it's a good ticket - however the cop writing a ticket is only an allegation - only the court can determine if the alleged violation in fact occured.

 

When appearing before the judge on the ticket - allowable evidence from the prosecution to meet their burden of proof is manufacturer GCVW ratings primarily - if the manufacture did not provide such (and the same legislation that required side air bags starting with 2008 models also required manufacturers to rate and post GCVW) then they would use the method of adding GVWRs of the tow veh and trailer - just like the law states in defining GCVW.

 

Since Ford rated the F350 dually GCWR at 29,000 from the 2008 year model up, in his court you would be found guilty if the trailor's GVWR was 10,001 or higher and you were driving without a class A. 2007 year model and down the proof would show that you were Guilty (lack of manufacture rating would find the GCWR to be 20,300 truck GVWR + 10,001 trailer = 30,001. So bottom line if you are towing with a F350 dually and your trailor GVWR is 10,001 or over you need an A! Yet you could pull the same trailer with a 3500HD chevy and get by with a C.

 

He also advised me that because of the two definitions of GCVW many local jurisdictions have requested and recieved letters of opinion from the Texas Attorney general as to the circumstances that justify a ticket. Should a ticket be recieved a lawyer should be retained - if for any reason to determine what the recieved opinion the local jurisdiction is operating under and whether the circumstances fit within the opinion - could make for a bad ticket that is dimissed regardless of fact...

 

GOTTA LOVE FORD!!!

 

As to the "business" definition - burden of proof is on the prosecution, they would have to prove business as opposed to recreational use (they could subpeona your records etc) and using the Federal Regulations (and thus the IRS determinations) - which are lagally citeable, it could easily be countered in the absence of such proof.

 

On the Rv side - it would have to have not only sleeping, bathroom and (to some extent kitchen) but also be fully self contained - that is grey water, black waste and fresh water tanks - other wise it does not meet what he (off the top of head) recalled being the definition of RV for exclusionary purposes.

 

AND - he advised not to argue with the cop - just be polite, say wow - I guess you learn something every day, take the ticket and go on. Arguing will only make the cop cross his t's and dot his i's (and look for anything else to "pile on") - making it harder to win in court. SO we are back to the box of doughnuts....

[jracer98]

2007 year model and down the proof would show that you were Guilty (lack of manufacture rating would find the GCWR to be 20,300 truck GVWR + 10,001 trailer = 30,001. So bottom line if you are towing with a F350 dually and your trailor GVWR is 10,001 or over you need an A! Yet you could pull the same trailer with a 3500HD chevy and get by with a C.

 

Got lost in your math...how did the older than 2008 f350 have a gvwr of 20,300 (by itself)?

My 95's doorsill says gvwr is 10,000. My license receipt says the truck weighs 6500. The "1 ton" payload is 2000lb with the rest going to fluids, passengers and hitch weight to approach 10,000 gvwr. Where does the extra 10,300 (20,300-10,000) come from?

 

jay

[jwmbishop]

2007 year model and down the proof would show that you were Guilty (lack of manufacture rating would find the GCWR to be 20,300 truck GVWR + 10,001 trailer = 30,001. So bottom line if you are towing with a F350 dually and your trailor GVWR is 10,001 or over you need an A! Yet you could pull the same trailer with a 3500HD chevy and get by with a C.

 

Got lost in your math...how did the older than 2008 f350 have a gvwr of 20,300 (by itself)?

My 95's doorsill says gvwr is 10,000. My license receipt says the truck weighs 6500. The "1 ton" payload is 2000lb with the rest going to fluids, passengers and hitch weight to approach 10,000 gvwr. Where does the extra 10,300 (20,300-10,000) come from?

 

jay

that was a WAG on my part - using the advertised gvwr of the 2011 drw as example - probably not accurate for the later models (ford has been very good at getting us higher GVWRs - in fact the highest on the market) - just to emphasize the point of check your post tag! And unfortunately a cop could make the same allegation - if he does not check your pillar tag and he WAGs as well!

 

edited:

the 05-07 dually crew diesel shows 11500 for the GVWR (per edmunds towing guide) - the weight of the cab etc is gonna be a part of it. In 08 the same truck trim dang near DOUBLED the gvwr!

 

As to the business side - something occured to me - the treasury code requires the IRS to adhere to state law. therefore if state law has found that your "hobby" is in fact a business - I feel there may be something there that allows you to then deduct your losses against other incomes - I will type out a request for opinion from our legal dept and the US attorney later this week.... stay tuned! A 2000 dollar ticket (AND SUBSEQUENT FINDING OF GUILT BY WAY OF BEING A COMMERCIAL VENTURE) may be the door to a $4000 tax break!

[racer61]

Ok, I have yet another question. If my combination is over the 26,001 CGVWR and requires this CDL license, but yet I cannot take a CDL test in the vehicle its required to operate with, what is John Q Public suppose to do? Besides clean out the trailer and sell it cus this crap is gettin out of hand.

 

Thats exactly what I was thinking.

 

 

???????

[jwmbishop]

Ok, I have yet another question. If my combination is over the 26,001 CGVWR and requires this CDL license, but yet I cannot take a CDL test in the vehicle its required to operate with, what is John Q Public suppose to do? Besides clean out the trailer and sell it cus this crap is gettin out of hand.

 

Thats exactly what I was thinking.

 

 

???????

Just got off the phone with our local DPS license clerk. She does not know anything about NOT being able to use your own rig - except that it has to be that an A is required by it. In other words using the 95 with a gvwr 10300 and a traler at 11000 would not work - however one could borrow a friends rig for the test!

 

She said some people have used a 30000 gvwr rental to pull their 10+ trailer for the test - but it must be rented and delivered to the test site by an A holder and the test taker MUST be authorised to drive it (can get a binder from rental agent for the testee - if the agent is willing to work with you).

[racer61]

My truck and trailer is 28,500 CGVWR. No air brakes, just triple axle electric brakes. standard 1 ton dodge dually. So is it possible to take my test with it?

[Truck99]

I thought it might be helpful to post a picture of a pillar tag taken today of a F350 King Ranch with the Diesel motor - 5th wheel equipped. I compared this sticker to my 04 F150 and an 08 F250 - nothing is different in terms of the weights listed. The sales rep at the Ford dealer knew nothing about any changes in 2009, and the stickers don't reflect any change. The GAWR is the Gross Axle Weight Rating and has to do with the maximum weight that the individuals axles can carry - these numbers do not factor into the 26,001 "magic" number.

 

You'll notice the GVWR on this truck is listed as 13,300. There is no GCWR listed on the sticker. Mr. Bishop, we are obviously failing to communicate on this deal, so I thought maybe a photo would help. Where are you getting the GCWR from this sticker? Thanks

 

[dancer52]

humm..like it was said before...clear as mud. Mine is a motorhome...so..guess I will just keep gambling for now....just not sure if getting a cdl will get me out of trouble..or put me into more trouble...

 

just fyi....the cop that pulled me over (and kept me for a while) knew exactly what my trailer was registered for weight wise...also told me he debated on pulling me or the other race car trailer he saw over...cause the other trailer was only registered for like 3,000# and he know the car weighed more than that...just fyi if you built your own trailer...(or did not register it right)

[rollercam]

If your traveling down 59 and never want to get messed with this is how you do it! Buy an old school bus fill it full of washers and dryers, hang a nissan pick up out the back, then hook three more cars in a train to the back of it, put one running light on it, put "in tow" on it, and finally put an illegal driving it going 40 mph and you can ride with no problems. Whats all the confusion about???

[racer61]

Rollercam, thats funny as he!! but true.

 

To make lite on the subject, I guess to be competitive like you guys I need to buy a ford, cus thats all Im hearing about. Guess my ole dodge just aint gonna cut it. LOL

[jracer98]

I thought it might be helpful to post a picture of a pillar tag taken today of a F350 King Ranch with the Diesel motor - 5th wheel equipped. I compared this sticker to my 04 F150 and an 08 F250 - nothing is different in terms of the weights listed. The sales rep at the Ford dealer knew nothing about any changes in 2009, and the stickers don't reflect any change. The GAWR is the Gross Axle Weight Rating and has to do with the maximum weight that the individuals axles can carry - these numbers do not factor into the 26,001 "magic" number.

 

You'll notice the GVWR on this truck is listed as 13,300. There is no GCWR listed on the sticker. Mr. Bishop, we are obviously failing to communicate on this deal, so I thought maybe a photo would help. Where are you getting the GCWR from this sticker? Thanks

 

 

 

I would assume that some of the increase in capacity from my 95's 10k gvwr to the 2011 f350's 13.3k is due to that truck's OEM 5th wheel's expected "tongue weight" (much higher than a tag) being experienced by the truck....but what if I didn't order an OEM 5th wheel and added one later--->the OEM "Non fifth wheel" truck's door sticker would be way less and therefore leave you more "room" in the 26,001 (?). Gee...

About 1970 or so, the insurance companies put huge surcharges of 500hp OEM street cars (with crappy suspension, 60/40 front weight bias and drum brakes). To counter this, Detroit put out laughably low HP ratings....290 hp Boss 302...390 hp 427 aluminum head corvette...etc.

Learning from history, why would Ford knowingly cooperate in a "rate the truck" deal that favors their competition? Like the fake Hp deal, wouldn't they try to tone this weight/capacity/capability thing down (wink wink)?

 

What really frosts me is that the big conversion truck/big trailer guy can bypass all this confusing illogical complexity because they have an onboard toilet....

 

jay

[jracer98]

just fyi....the cop that pulled me over (and kept me for a while) knew exactly what my trailer was registered for weight wise...also told me he debated on pulling me or the other race car trailer he saw over...cause the other trailer was only registered for like 3,000# and he know the car weighed more than that...just fyi if you built your own trailer...(or did not register it right)

 

My trailer is tagged for 10,000 and the dang plate for it is $13.00 more per year than the plate on the dually

 

My truck weighs about 8K going to the track...the trailer is 4500 empty....the car is 2300..roller tool cart, tires, etc 1000 so I'm rolling down the road at about 16,000lbs on a load limit of 26,001 and W & L is gunning for me....perfect.

jay

[jwmbishop]

Interesting - our 09 has the gcvw on the sticker - to the right of the GVWR as your sticker shows. I looked Friday just before I drove it up to camping world to store it and the trailer for the winter!

 

I will be up there again in three weeks will shoot photo.

 

Just because it ain't on the tag don't mean the manufacturer did not set a rating - state law defines the GCVW as set by the manufacturer OR if not by manufacturer by adding the the two GVWRs together - what part of that are we not communicating correctly on?

 

Ford set the rate for a f350 dually supercab at 29,000 and advertises it as such on their specifications. What part of that are we not communicating correctly on?

 

Man gets ticket, man complains, explanation for ticket given, person providing explanation gets inbox fiull of hate PMs.

 

Geez never mind.

 

Solution: tow what you want where you want with whatever you want and don't complain when\if you get a ticket!

 

(just being funny - don't take it seriously folks)

[jwmbishop]

My truck and trailer is 28,500 CGVWR. No air brakes, just triple axle electric brakes. standard 1 ton dodge dually. So is it possible to take my test with it?

Should be - but call and check, not all DPS license offices have testers for each scenario available and will have to schedule an apointment. (a WAG on my part based on the fact that our local clerk said she would have to bring a person in from another location as she herself could not administer the test for a non big rig class A, needed two week notice etc etc..)

[KISS_Racing]

Wow! I just ran out of pop corn... Sounds to me based on what I have read that there is room for interruptation on this. Then again I have been told that if an officer wants to pull you over he can. I was in the Benz coming home from the shop and going through Schertz, Texas. I was doing the speed limit with the cruise control set. I noticed a vehicle approaching at a rapid speed. They got within two car lengths and did not have a blinker on, so I moved over knowing full well that it was a passing lane. As I went onto the shoulder he turned on his red/blue's. When he came up I handed him my license, CWL and papers. He asked the "Do you know why I pulled you over" question to which I responded no sir, " I know I was not speeding!" He says " You pulled onto the shoulder!!!" I responded "Yes sir, you were speeding and came way to close to my vehicle! I did not know whether you were a DRUNK and did not want to hassle with having to call my insurance and take the car in for repairs!!!!!!" "Oh BTW, my car has GPS and speedometer is calibrated!" He stood there for 15 seconds handed me my things back and said " I have another call, have a nice day..."

 

Now I have been told many times from local PD, Deputy Sheriff's and even DPS troopers (friends)that there is a list of things to which you can be pulled over for even if you don't do anything wrong. One of the best Border Patrol/US Customs tricks is to pull up next to a driver and sit there next to them while traveling down the highway. If the driver does not look at them in a certain time frame(what ever agent decides it to be). They will pull said vehicle over based on them not being aware of their surrounding. OR JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO...

 

Sounds to me like a lot of people are going to have some work to do to make sure they are legal...

 

Did we ever hear how "il"legal the Spreen's rig was?

 

Oh and as far as the School bus and multiple truck thing, we will leave that alone...

[Boernebullet]

Still doing our research and reading and gathering information. I appreciate all the info being posted.

 

I weighed my Dodge 1 ton and 48' fully loaded trailer on my home from Florida today and weighed under 26001 pounds.

I will be speaking with my DMV and registration office on what my options are.

 

I also noticed today towing through Houston on my way back that there was more of these Commercial Vechicle Enforcers on I-10 coming into Houston from Louisiana. I got my tickets towing into Houston in Katy.