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Qualifying vs Heat Races


fast18

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Too many classes is the problem!!!

 

Exactly my thoughts.

 

From a driver, owner, and most of all a fan, I would watch heat races any day before time trials. JMO Run the heats and drop some of the classes.

So if classes go we also see a corresponding number of warm seats sold.

In this economy a decrease in the sub economy (track and related entity) involved is an answer to anything? How would less money to run the track improve the show? If "duct tape" isn't the right answer you are asking the question wrong.

 

Pills (made of duct tape), heats in the afternoon and mains in the evenings. run em all - let God (and a bunch of Kitty Litter) sort em out...

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We used to qualify 70 cars on a 3/8, run a trophy dash for the featured class, run 8 heats (4 to line up the semi, 4 to line up the main), a consi (2 to semi), semi (4 to main) and main event. Pits opened at 10. Of course these were all Super Stocks with VERY open rules. the folks with the most money could easily beat the other guys budget.

When classes came along because of the need to promote to this large spread of budgets, that changed drastically. But it was the cost of keeping the track alive.

The most classes we ran as time progressed were 4 a night (of 5) rotating one class off. But it was getting tough even at that to sell the seats (which they did - but required a ton more work). Heats were all done by 6:30 - but we always qualified and ran heats. Ended up starting hot lap at 11 quals at 2. To speed things up a driver could take a pill instead of qualifying. fastest to back. 2 pts bonus for both qualifying and improving your start position. National anthem at 7 and semis and mains were done by 11 - lights out at 11:45.

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For those that want to see a little racing before the feature races.

 

I think the direction the track is going to get the show in earlier is great. A thought….open the gates at 10am and what if the test and tune session started at 11:00 and run all the practices as scheduled. (practice could be over by 2:30)

 

 

Qualifying: (start at 3:30) maybe run two at a time-or-for selected series/class use the fast time from the last practice. (might save a little time)

 

For those that want a little racing before the features: You could have the top 6? (based on time) draw a number for the starting position let them run a six lap dash for the pole. (if you bring out the caution you can start scratch in the feature--may get some of those motors that seem to re-fire only when the yellow waves fired right up)

 

Just some ideas

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Got this via Email from someone in Florida (no, not Rick Day!) who doesn't have a LSS account but was reading this thread.

 

Lots of different ways to look at this decision. At Hialeah we used to do it from time to time if we had a big feature in some division. If we had bad weather we'd do it to streamline the show and get past halfway so that we didn't have to honor rainchecks. If the heats are used to determine a spot in the feature that is one thing but if heat are being run simply to run them, then no, not a big deal.

 

Southern dirt tracks, and some paved ones too, are known for their lengthy and usually boring time trials. Trust me, this does not happen everywhere thank God. For years the lower divisions at the many of the Northeast dirt tracks ran at about 6 PM with few if any fans in the stands. They were the feeder divisions, they got to race and the fans arrived in droves to see the modifieds race later and at most the tracks had three divisions. Most tracks today run too many divisions and it gets boring and late and they've killed the deal. An ideal race night is a maximum of three hours with non stop activity. No intermission, no BS, just race and send the fans and competitors home at a descent hour.

 

Sorry, I could write and expound on this for hours as I've seen every way in the world to screw it up and only a few examples of how to do it correctly. It's not rocket science but most track operators (they are NOT promoters) operate without a clue as to what their customers (fan base and competitors) really want. When you visit a track that does it right it sticks out like a sore thumb.

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Here is just an out of the box thought...Why not combine some classes, run two classes together that have simular lap times but keep there points seperate and still give out 2 trophies. seen some dirt tracks do this when car counts are low.

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it will be trial and error, it is a bunch of classes that's th bottom line. Then in the case of the last event, a bunch of cars showed up!

at this point the schedule cannot be adjusted class-wise so THR will be having to try to format these shows where they work best for everyone involved. this will be the first idea, i personally am fine without heats other than the fact that many of us will have a far better chance to win a heat race than a main!

so let's work with the track to see what works best, it was a heck of a time getting the doors open for 2010 so one thing for sure is that we need to figure what will keep the rear ends in the stands. i see with this format that folks will arrive around 5:30 for 6pm racing and hopefully they stay all the way through and hopefully we have them all run by 10:30ish.

moving forward i honestly do think we go to 5-6 classes per night, then move back to heats, qualifing one local etc...

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Got this via Email from someone in Florida (no, not Rick Day!) who doesn't have a LSS account but was reading this thread.

 

.... An ideal race night is a maximum of three hours with non stop activity. No intermission, no BS, just race and send the fans and competitors home at a descent hour.....

 

Not exactly addressing the "heats versus qualifying" conversation, but endorsing what's stated in those sentences is an important practice that should be adopted by track promoters when looking for ways to keep the spectators coming back week after week.

 

Take a look at the average length of football, basketball, and baseball games: approximately 3 hours Take a look at the average length of a movie: approximately 1 hour & 40 minutes.

 

Audiences nowadays possess a short attention span and/or are involved in too many other activities to devote 4+ hours to sitting at the track.

 

Plus, look at what is taking place at the track that causes those 4+ hours shows: too many similar classes; too many cautions; too much time to line back up after a caution.

 

Suggestions:

 

Run 1 Detroit bodied class, 1 open wheel class, 1 "Premier" class. If you have multiple Detroit bodied classes, alternate the weekends they run. Joe and Joan Spectator with little Johnny running around the stands couldn't tell you the difference between a Stock and a Hot stock, the difference between a Limited Mod and a full Mod (yes, <- this applies mainly to dirt tracks),etc.

 

Maybe run a 4th "Special Touring" class race once a month.

 

Fewer classes, less time required to run the show.

 

Fewer cars in the Feature. Most of the area tracks are too small to allow 20 to 24 cars/trucks to maneuver. Depending on the size and speed of the race car/truck and the track, limit the feature to 14 to 16, maybe 18 cars.

 

Too few you say? How many times, during the feature on a small tight track, do you start with 20 or so cars, and after a couple of cautions – started by too many cars in a confined area- to start the race, do you end up with 14 to 16 to less cars running the rest of the feature?

 

Either or a combination of more scorers or more scoring loops on the track, plus Raceceivers or radios in all classes.

 

If you run heats, you cause a caution, you go to the pits. In the Feature, you cause 2 cautions, your night is over.

 

The obvious answer is keeping the show running...

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it is easy to say ( to many classes) maybe true , but if it brings more money to the back gate every race weekend when all the teams show up. i bet as a track owner or promoter that cant be a bad thing . so i dont that as a bad thing . great if anything ! jus need a way to speed up the show . so when a spectator pays to see ten classes of different cars to race , they get it in a timely manner.

to many classes never, dont put a limit on what keeps the doors open at the track

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When I leave my house to go to THR I know Im going to be on the road for an hour+(one way). I would guess that many fans face the same driving time(give or take). Thats OK. I want to go see some racing and hear the Thunder. I want to see real race cars that go real fast and make lots of noise. I also want to see heat races instead of boring Quals.To me that means four classes....Late Models, Pro-Mods, Trucks and Super Stocks. That leaves six classes that, although entertaining, dont mean that much to me. I know those six classes are needed to bring in $ in the back gate. I understand that. Most of the six classes are SLOW. They take much longer to go around the track. Run less laps with these cars. And let them run heats too. Just fewer laps. Im not knocking these classes. They are important. I know that THR is doing their very best to make the fans and drivers happy. Its hard and costs lots of money. I really dont know what will and will not work. This is just my way of thinking. Hopefully all these post will give THR some ideas that will help them with their efforts to continue giving us a place to watch and play.

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My 2 cents....

I agree the "show" should be over at a decent hour. I live about an hour away and my wife is ready to go about 2 features before the end of the show. I would like to spend a little time in the pits after the races to see what happened with certain cars and congrat teams etc. but by the time its over some of us have been there for 10-12 hours or more. In the old days we showed up at about 5:30 or 6:00. we practiced raced and still had time shoot the breeze afterwards. ( maybe being younger had something to do with it?).

 

My parents live in the Marble Falls area and have almost a 2 hour drive home. They always wait until we race then say they need to start heading home, and they miss some good races. I know they like to watch the grandstocks and like to see different cars but just cant make a late night drive home. Being the only asphalt track around I'm sure we get quite a few people who have a long ride home after the races.

 

It doesn't matter to me which classes run but I think every class that runs should be given the respect the other classes get. In other words just because the grandstocks aren't as glamorous as the late models doesn't mean their part of the show is any less important.With 5 or 6 local classes and 6 or 7 "traveling series" we are only getting 8-10 cars per class. if we had fewer classes and the same number of teams, the back gate doesn't change, the racer family "front gate' doesnt change but the races are better with more cars and the show ends sooner because there are fewer events. I think it would be ok to combine similars classes as some one suggested but I don't think we really have classes that run similars times that would be safe on the track at the same time because of car size. The closest we have is TSRS and the Pro-Mods but I think everyone would rather not combine these two classes.( now combine the practice times in these two classes and add the time together and both classes would be able to dial in a little better)

 

As far as the original question I think local classes should have heat races (its part of short track racing) and the feature race or classes should time trial. I would rather see fewer classes running more races with more cars anyday.

Just another opinion

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Here is just an out of the box thought...Why not combine some classes, run two classes together that have simular lap times but keep there points seperate and still give out 2 trophies. seen some dirt tracks do this when car counts are low.

 

Good idea. Run everything without a V8 together!

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The 2010 race schedule (classes running) is pretty much set in stone. I like what the track is doing but maybe have heat races for some of the local classes and qualifying for one or two of the local classes. The management is addressing the problem of the race program running too long. I would bet with a bit of fine tuning everyone (almost everyone) will be pleased.

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Here is just an out of the box thought...Why not combine some classes, run two classes together that have simular lap times but keep there points seperate and still give out 2 trophies. seen some dirt tracks do this when car counts are low.

 

Good idea. Run everything without a V8 together!

this thread was going great, everyone seamed to have some great ideas and posative ones too. but like always some one has to come along and be a smarta#$.

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Here is just an out of the box thought...Why not combine some classes, run two classes together that have simular lap times but keep there points seperate and still give out 2 trophies. seen some dirt tracks do this when car counts are low.

 

Good idea. Run everything without a V8 together!

i can just see the carnage and time for those cleanups ..ambulance rides and all .if you were to combine all classes into one race .that isnt a v8 ...that statement is aboult as dumb as it can get ..i agree with you on smart.a .. lets see the front runners .tps .and allisons together on the track at the same time ..not to mention the dwarf.s too ... i cant even fathom how that would turn out nore figure how that would save time ...... i sure has heck would not want to be in a dwarf carand get hit buy a 2000 pound plus car .. nore a .front runner when the tps and allison cars come flying iinto a turn .much less passing on the strieghts ...maybe interesting to the fans ..but hell on the rest ..maybe we can do that someday .and give this man a front runner ... ps i aint knocking the front runners nore any class ..

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Said this before. Qualifying...

 

Qualify with no inversion.

Impound all cars/trucks (no changes after qualifying, ok maybe air pressure)

When it is time for each class to run, Go racing...

 

No thanks - no inversion races are boring for the fans. Impounds serve no purpose at this level.

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I think almost everyone is on the right track somewhat. I think if THR limited all classes to one practice and get the heats started alittle earlier starting with the lower classes first we could keep it the same. I hate to eliminate a practice session but if this will speed up all the racing Im all for it. I have mixed emotions about the quals. If they keep them I think the fast qualifyer should have to pick 3 different lineups. 1. Start where you qualify. 2. Invert the whole field. or 3. Invert the top six. I think maybe even get the fans involved and have them pick it. That would make things interesting and would excite the fans knowing they had something to do with the race. JMO.

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Well hell I don't know what will be best but I think if you had me in the RED EL CAMINO #65 as the pase car we would get through with the show sooner. :lol::P:rolleyes:

woohoo, a pace car we can actually run into. :lol:

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Sure it does. And how do you figure they are boring. Not everyone who qualifies well runs well.

 

Do I really need to explain why heads-up races are boring? I think it's a pretty simple concept.

 

Regarding impounds - we've raced for the past 12 years in a variety of classes or series using impound and non-impound formats. I continue to believe they accomplish next to nothing in most local level classes based on real life experience.

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Sure it does. And how do you figure they are boring. Not everyone who qualifies well runs well.

 

Do I really need to explain why heads-up races are boring? I think it's a pretty simple concept.

 

Regarding impounds - we've raced for the past 12 years in a variety of classes or series using impound and non-impound formats. I continue to believe they accomplish next to nothing in most local level classes based on real life experience.

 

Wow, so your saying that the competition isnt that close? When you have the top 8 to 10 trucks that close not to mention Thunderstocks all seem fairly close. Street Stocks or whatever they are called now are close and well as TSRS, TPS and ETC... I must see it different than you do and thats ok. Heck even back to the SAS days the Sportman cars were close. With Us, Mathais. Oates, Rohmer and on & on. Qualifying for Octoberfastr was great. I understand it's about the fans and a show. Again I say not every driver nails a qualifier and runs good.

 

As far as impounding, again we see it different. You qualify, impound allow minor changes and run. As a driver/crew you hope you make the right air pressure changes and may the best win...

 

He asked for opinions and we both gave them... What a concept... :lol:

 

Oh, forgot to mention getting torn up in heat races and having to fix it...

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Sure it does. And how do you figure they are boring. Not everyone who qualifies well runs well.

 

Do I really need to explain why heads-up races are boring? I think it's a pretty simple concept.

 

Regarding impounds - we've raced for the past 12 years in a variety of classes or series using impound and non-impound formats. I continue to believe they accomplish next to nothing in most local level classes based on real life experience.

 

 

I agree with SS99.

 

The impound also gives young and newer drivers less chances at practice.

 

Mel

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Even if the features were inverted, the fast cars will find a way to the front. They always do. Most of the local classes already have the fast cars at the back because of point average, so then qualifying would be for nothing except to make the show go by quicker. Roll the dice like they did the first year in TSRS and if the driver who wins the pole rolls snake eyes, then the field gets a complete invert. If they roll a 7 then the top 7 get inverted, etc...

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