landlord Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I replied to the "houston results" post with this and got to thinking that I would like to know how everyone else feels about inverting and how the tracks handle the cars that cause cautions.Anyone that watched last nights race in Houston mainly watched cars putting around under the yellow flag.I have always hated inverts,all they are good for is tearing up good racars,with that being said I can understand why a promoter would want to invert (promote action by making the fast cars have to go around the slow ones) but to invert an entire field of $40,000 cars is crazy.The cars up front are slow for a reason(inexperience,not handling properly,or just plain slow)They were all driving with their rearview mirrors and it made for a huge mess.I can see mabey inverting the top 5 or 8 "fastest" just to make things interesting,but thats it!!!!To make things worse they were not putting some of the cars in the back that caused the caution,when I asked why, they said when they don't know for sure who caused it noone gets put in the rear.(WHAT)if you can't determine whos at fault the all involved rule should take effect(I hate this rule also)but I sure hate to see someone clearly come down on someone and tear up a bunch of teams hard work and high dollar equipment just because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then to see these no driving gobers get to go right back in their last completed lap position just burns me up!!!!Graham has said in past meetings that he hates to see cars tore up,I hope he reviews last nights debacle and does a little tweeking on the race foremat the team I was with can't afford any more nights like that!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I don't care much for full field inverts, even though we've raced that way in our class for almost 10 years. The problem with them, as you have noted, is that the cars at the very front set such a slow pace that the traffic jam behind them is almost inevitable. Heads-up races aren't too cool either because they generally end up much like they started. I think a compromise between the two where 1/2 or so of the field is inverted, thus keeping the "learners" at the rear, is a much better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfat Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I think it has alot to do with the # of laps a class runs and how many cars are in said class. Most of the local classes don't run enough laps to allow drivers in the back to take their time getting to the front. Thus causing huge problems for the drivers, clean up crews and especially the fans. 1/2 field inverts for 20 or so car races might be good but if it's a 1/2 field invert for 10 cars, what's the use? Maybe it should be 1/2 field inverts for car counts over 15 and full field for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockStan Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 kind of carry the learners should lose the ego and start scratch i did the first half of my first season and learned alot from this still i will start scratch if something is wrong or the car is new to me it is just a good practice but i think that a 1/2 invert would be iffy you would have to time trial every night to see who has picked up and who is fast and who is faster just because you won does not mean you were the fastest and just because you were last does not mean you were the slowest so you could end up with a funky situation basically there is no happy medium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 wake up , pay attention , drive thruogh the windshield instead of the radio , and just drive the car like you are in a race , and not out to see if you can't out do your qualifying time.........like ss99 said lots of people on lots of saturday nights have been doing it forever , so what's the problem. don't blame the system , blame the guy that was too proud to start off in a begineer stock , and that doesnt specifically mean the guy starting up front. besides he didn't back into that guy that was trying to pass him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 kind of carry the learners should lose the ego and start scratch i did the first half of my first season and learned alot from this still i will start scratch if something is wrong or the car is new to me it is just a good practice but i think that a 1/2 invert would be iffy you would have to time trial every night to see who has picked up and who is fast and who is faster just because you won does not mean you were the fastest and just because you were last does not mean you were the slowest so you could end up with a funky situation basically there is no happy medium I thought about this and you are right.I think if your class does not do time trails they could use that days practice times. Horse if everyone would race the way you think there would be no problem.From what I was told most of the guys causing the problems last night have been racing along time.Trying to block and protect their positions is one thing turning into someone who has the position is another.Late models with all the plastic and fiberglass just cant take that kind of punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Here's how I used to handle inverts when I was chief steward at SAS. For main events I would split the field in half by point average and invert the front half and leave the back half not inverted. In other words, the back half of the field would start heads up with the highest point average driver starting right behind the front half of the field. This accomplished a lot of things. 1) It kept the front runners from making it a runaway. The high points guys had to pass the "fast half" of the field in order to win. But at the same time, the fastest guys did not have to worry about the slowest drivers until a few laps were in the books. 2) It put the slowest drivers at the very rear. No explanation needed here I guess... 3) It gave those two or three guys who were at the front of the second half of the field a very real shot at starting on the pole next week if they did well this week. Talk about an incentive to do well! 4) It gave the slowest teams an opportunity to race by themselves for a few laps without worrying about getting run over by the 'thundering herd." 5) But most importantly, it gave the fans a good show without all the inevitable carnage of inverting the whole field. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 That sounds like an OK system.At least the fast guys are racing together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Day Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Nick That is exactly the system I put back in place this year for SAS. Top 12 in points inverted for the feature. rest of the field would line up from highest to lowest, then any new cars or cars without a points average. Bottom line is we are in the entertainment business and we have to put on a show and entertain the fans. Starting the fast guy on the pole everyweek is not entertaining and the PAYING fan will start to look elsewhere to spend there hard earned dollar. Dont get me wrong the drivers spend alot also, but it takes more than the back gate to cover the MAJOR COSTS of running a weekly racetrack. Rick Day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I like Nick's example. You can do it a number of ways but a lot of it depends, as Jody said, on the number of cars and laps. You invert 20 or so cars it will be ugly...of course it isn't always better with 10. Practice times isn't a bad idea, might raise some trouble though. I like qualifying more. Just pick a way and go and they'll show up and race...hopefully!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 As I stated in my original post I do understand the promoters need to put on a good show.Half the field would not be to bad but the whole field is just asking for it.How did you guys handle the cars that caused the cautions.I have never been a fan of the all involved rule but with 20 plus cars on the track its impossible for the track officials to see who caused every wreck.I hate getting put to the rear for something you did'nt do but at the same time I hate seeing someone get away with wrecking inocent peoples cars.What a delima!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racetrackfan Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I did hear alot of the drivers say they may not go back to Houston after the Late Model race..couldnt blame them...So when you lose the racecars what good are the fans..Houston has a good track but it looked like a dirt track race Sat. nite.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 lanlord, judgement calls last year...seemed to be what a lot of the drivers wanted rather than all involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 lanlord, judgement calls last year...seemed to be what a lot of the drivers wanted rather than all involved. All involved does suck!!!!Graham put 2 towers in the corners and I know he's trying.But after watching the film today some cars got away with murder last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfat Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 The all involved rule is terrible unless it's used when a decision of who caused the wreck is impossible to make. Judgment calls are good except for the guy thats making the judgment. He'll be hated by someone every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Judgment calls are good except for the guy thats making the judgment. He'll be hated by someone every time. Thats the problem...everone has a different judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Everyone seems to be alot more cautious when the "all involved" rule is in effect,but I still hate it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I agree I thought drivers were a little more patient with the A.I.R. and it helped some of the races at the smaller tracks. Drivers were always more cautious at SAS so it didn't seem to be as big of a deal there. I think both ways of calling it suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STAGGER77 Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Is Houston still doing the spotter committee judgment calls? jason ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Is Houston still doing the spotter committee judgment calls? jason ray Yes,but if majority don't all agree all cars involved get put back into the position of their last coompleted lap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldracer Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 invert top five if you are involved you go to the back if you are leading and get spun out get five laps and five minutes with the one who did it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 I agree with Nicks and Ricks methods on this,the runaway shows really stink. They have inverted whole fields at other track by point average for years and their feature was only 25 laps and many times the fast guys would still win. Maybe they should take out the mirrors and make them concentrate on what is ahead of them instead of blocking and mirror driving,that is how most of the old timers have done it. A few years ago the SLMs still took each other out without the inverts, so it really doesn't seem to matter either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 The Blizzard series is very successfull and they line up according to qualifying times,so I am not sure I buy this whole have to invert thing.There is no inverting in real racing and Late models is as real as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racegirl Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 I'm not exactly sure what car or cars you are talking about. Being that most of the accidents came from mid pack. Which were guys that would have either started up with points, or in the middle anyway. You can not always look at the guys up front on an invert as slow or inexperienced. Especially one race into the season. I for one know that my cousin started second, because he was caught up in an accident the first race which was no fault of his, more so of cars that don't slow down when the yellow is thrown. If any of you were referring to the 14 stewart, as the cause to any of the cautions, watch the race again. I may be on the defensive here, but again most of the wrecks happened mid pack. So instead of placing blame on a full inversion, lets chalk it up to racing and accidents happen. It was a wild night. I'll give you that. I watched as my cousin's night went down the drain. Goes from leading to the wall with 11 to go. So again don't place blame on an inversion when we all know that these things happen in racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 If any of you were referring to the 14 stewart, as the cause to any of the cautions, watch the race again. I certainly wasn't. I didn't even see the race. I was referring to our past experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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