Metric Street Stocks

[Truck99]

I drive both a metric(my truck) and a leaf spring car(ss). My truck has weight jacks and a stock 4 link. I see the times at CCMS are identical, THR the truck .5 sec quicker. SAS I seem to remember being faster than the sportsmans. Thats with a 305 a ton less HP. I also feel like my truck is more stable on corner entry turns better in the center and is looser off.I have won with the car and not the truck yet this year. just my opinion dont know if all this rambling helps or not. I prefer to drive the truck. trying to help the four link guys might get you camoro guys beat.

 

Rusty, I think comparing the truck chassis to a THR street stock metric chassis is apples to oranges. In my opinion, comparing the truck to just about any SS/Sportsman car is apples to oranges mainly because of adjustability and weight differences.

 

Historically, metrics have not done well at THR under the current rules. Some guys have tried them that should have all the knowledge and means needed to get the most out of them.

 

This thread was intended to start some thinking about how to expand the rules to make those cars more competitive. In my mind, it was for two reasons - first because those types of cars are likely to be the norm in the future of SS racing and second to maybe increase the car count at THR over the coming years.

 

If they end up being faster than the leaf cars in the end, so be it. We'll just build one of our own.

[Crazyhorse]

there's a 550 lb weight difference between a street stock stlyle car and a truck , alot less low end torque , and an astronomical difference in the roll center.

[poorboy]

Helping the metric cars only makes them closer to the camaro and nova. I don't beleive it makes them better.

I honestly thought mine would be better but it's not, atleast with me driving it it's not.

[Ariel66]

So does this mean that leaf spring cars are the car to run? IMO i thought that the metric cars were'nt as competitive becuase of the reputation of the camaros so everyone was wanting to build one, resulting on less knowledge on metric cars. I honestly feel that the metric cars can compete, also camaro's are getting harder and harder to find, don't get me wrong I love camaro's, but are they going to be the car of the past?Just curious because I have the option to build either one.

[Truck99]

So does this mean that leaf spring cars are the car to run? IMO i thought that the metric cars were'nt as competitive becuase of the reputation of the camaros so everyone was wanting to build one, resulting on less knowledge on metric cars. I honestly feel that the metric cars can compete, also camaro's are getting harder and harder to find, don't get me wrong I love camaro's, but are they going to be the car of the past?Just curious because I have the option to build either one.

 

I think a 3-link super stock would be a lot of fun to work on - alot easier to adjust than a leaf car. But that being said, leaf cars still rule the super stocks, at least at THR. The 01 metric car has a very capable driver both in suspension knowledge and driving ability, and so far he hasn't been able to make that car as competiive as the leaf cars - and it's not for a lack of effort on his part. It would be nice if additional capable and knowledgeable people give the 3-link cars a try, and I think in time they will. We would have tried one when we built the new car, but we already a complete camaro as a builder car.

[Mona]

My question is why is only the metric coil spring cars allowed to run the 3rd link? We asked Jack about our sportsman car, but since it is not a metric chassis, we can not run the 3rd link. It is coil spring but not metric. Is there an advantage to a non-metric coil spring car, over the leaf spring, that I don't know about? I have just been wondering about this since we started at THR and am glad that this topic has been updated.

[Truck99]

My question is why is only the metric coil spring cars allowed to run the 3rd link? We asked Jack about our sportsman car, but since it is not a metric chassis, we can not run the 3rd link. It is coil spring but not metric. Is there an advantage to a non-metric coil spring car, over the leaf spring, that I don't know about? I have just been wondering about this since we started at THR and am glad that this topic has been updated.

 

 

That's a good question. I'm not sure why the rule was written that way. If I had to guess, I'd say there was an assumption that the metric cars were at such a disadvantage that they needed the help and maybe the assumption was that the non-metric coil cars did not have that same disadvantage. I have no idea if that would be an accurate assumption. I think racer82 has a non-metric coil spring car also.

[Ariel66]

Since it's been a while I figured I'd ask, since when did they start allowing a 3 link, and panhard bar in the SS class at THR for the metric cars? Was there an improvement? I noticed at the last race that Terry seemed to be hooking up better than I normally would see him. He still has the only metric car out there. Any input.

[Truck99]

Since it's been a while I figured I'd ask, since when did they start allowing a 3 link, and panhard bar in the SS class at THR for the metric cars? Was there an improvement? I noticed at the last race that Terry seemed to be hooking up better than I normally would see him. He still has the only metric car out there. Any input.

 

I think it was the season after this discussion started that the metric cars went 3-link at THR. Seems like they have been 3-link for at least 2 full seasons. I would agree with you Ariel that Terry's car has improved since the change. He works hard on it, and he has it faster than a lot of the leaf cars now. I had hoped that the change would encourage more metric cars, but so far, it hasn't.

[thumper]

My experience has been that nothing will give foreward bite better than leaf springs WHEN you have traction like asphalt or heavy dirt.On a dry skick track the leafs become impotent because they cannot wrap.I do not think a 3 link with stock lowers can compete with a leaf on asphalt.They need adjustable lowers with different lengths and adjustable foreward mounts plus adjustable panhard and then possibly you can catch the leafs if you add a spring to the pull bar.Stock lowers,ridged pull bar and a fixed track bar and the 3 link becomes impotent on asphalt.Its too easy to shock the rear tires loose and break traction so a car is set up tighter than a leaf car.Now a long right bar with a short left bar combined with a 400 lb spring pull bar osing a 90-10 damper running uphill and you have a live suspension that can be tuned to allow a freer set up with a little roll steer.Leafs are hard to tune rear steer with.So if you really want a metric car to compete with a Camaro give them a true 3 link. JMO.

[Truck99]

My experience has been that nothing will give foreward bite better than leaf springs WHEN you have traction like asphalt or heavy dirt.On a dry skick track the leafs become impotent because they cannot wrap.I do not think a 3 link with stock lowers can compete with a leaf on asphalt.They need adjustable lowers with different lengths and adjustable foreward mounts plus adjustable panhard and then possibly you can catch the leafs if you add a spring to the pull bar.Stock lowers,ridged pull bar and a fixed track bar and the 3 link becomes impotent on asphalt.Its too easy to shock the rear tires loose and break traction so a car is set up tighter than a leaf car.Now a long right bar with a short left bar combined with a 400 lb spring pull bar osing a 90-10 damper running uphill and you have a live suspension that can be tuned to allow a freer set up with a little roll steer.Leafs are hard to tune rear steer with.So if you really want a metric car to compete with a Camaro give them a true 3 link. JMO.

 

Thumper, you make good points, but some of the things you mentioned just won't happen in a street stock (super stock) class. Jack has always been about trying to keep the suspension components very near stock. That being said, they are allowed an adjustable (solid) top link and an adjustable panhard bar, so some of what you suggested is already in place. Heck, some of what you suggested is not even allowed in TSRS type cars.

[poorboy]

Chase I'm not sure if you remember my red #17 metric car from CC. It had weight jacks, fully adjustable panhard bar, and third link. It was a very competitive car, The problem with the metric cars is even though they are allowed evrything on the rear end the front end geometry is terrible. It even gets worse when you try to lower the car so you have to run them a little high.

[Truck99]

Chase I'm not sure if you remember my red #17 metric car from CC. It had weight jacks, fully adjustable panhard bar, and third link. It was a very competitive car, The problem with the metric cars is even though they are allowed evrything on the rear end the front end geometry is terrible. It even gets worse when you try to lower the car so you have to run them a little high.

 

I do remember it. I also remember the #13 of Bill Stephens that kicked our butts in qualifying the night we ran down there. You were faster as well.

[poorboy]

Bills car was actually a cut down early model monte carlo. It wasn't a metric but it was super fast. In fact it still is on the dirt.

[fastman]

OK now here is the million $ solution to all of this, someone has to put leaf springs on a metric chassis car and then run it. If Jack is truly a apple to apple guy I see no problem with this being allowed in the A-line street stock at Thunder Hill Raceway.

 

I also see it this way, there is absolutly no advantage to a metric car having leaf springs, I have been all over the street stock rules and can not find one thing to advance the metric chassis beyond the camaro. Hell the camaro even has better shock mounting position, poor metric chassis, it just was not ment to be.

 

To answer the question for some curious minds, Yes it's actually kinda easy to convert a coil spring car to leaf springs. Just ask some chassis builders or some part time fab guy's.

[abrungot]

From my view, Terry has worked his butt off on the set up of the 01 Super Stock. I remember the first time it hit the track, vs. now... and its night and day.

 

The thing with the metric cars, it is not just the car, its the driving style. I think the biggest issue that Terry worked on all year was brakes. Serveral supers were having brake issues. Metrics weight transfer is so much more dramatic than the the other cars. Once brakes go away on the metric the car goes to crap in a hurry.

 

the brake bias rule change may help this... but it will take race conditions to see.

[racer61]

HHHMMMM, if my memory serves me correctly, somewhere around 1993 or 94, Keith Sandefur, Teresa Gural and myself were the only metric cars in what was then the superstock class at long horn. 3 link with original lowers and mounting locations, rubber mounted top bar, which means no heims, panhard bar, and stock front control arms upper and lower. Racing shocks were ok and adjustable rear spring spacers. In a class dominated by camaros and Terry James' nova, Keith and I accounted for the most wins individually. ( im pretty sure because Terry didnt run every week either. Damn he was hard to beat) Metric cars can be very competitive with the right modifications.