Jump to content
rebelracewriter

Well they finally did....not since 1960

Recommended Posts

Direct from qa1 site;

Quote

What is a "tie-down" and "easy-up" shock?

In circle track racing, “tie-down shock” and “easy-up shock” are two common terms used to describe valving characteristics of a shock. A “tie-down shock” is used to describe a shock that has stiffer rebound settings than compression settings. This term is widely used when describing a 4-link dirt modified right front shock or asphalt cars front shocks. An “easy-up shock” is a common term used to describe a shock with stiff compression and soft rebound. This term is widely used when describing a 4-link dirt modified left rear or left front shock. When someone is trying to describe a shock and uses one of these terms, it’s best to ask which valving they are actually describing. A 3-5 is considered a tie-down while a 3-12 is also considered a tie-down. As you can see, this term can describe two very different shocks! Here’s an example: A 7-3 valved right front street shock is considered an “easy-up shock” and a 3-5 valved left rear street shock is considered a “tie-down shock.”

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rebelracewriter said:

Tim probably buys his "racing" shocks/springs at auto zone.:lol:

HEY MAN we won  a lot of races with that store bought junk ..be easy man .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rebelracewriter said:

 Sorry Mike....forgot you worked at Auto Zone:lol:

yep but I am retired now got tired of them making to much money off of me . .doing my own thing ..working  on a 48 ford for someone now less stressful .nice to be your own boss .with the new cars we dont spend half as much with any autoparts stores ...

Edited by HiTech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, rebelracewriter said:

So a shock, designed to hold upward, is holding the springs down? Really?

HUH?,  I am confused, I thought a tie down shock was designed to hold the springs down.   

Wouldnt a shock designed to hold upward like that be counter productive to keeping the nose on the ground?  

Where can you find a shock that is designed to pick up a car/truck?  I have never seen one.

Shocks are designed to regulate how fast the car goes down or comes up. 

I thought springs supplied the energy to lift the car/truck up.  Am I wrong?

Edited by toyotatim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But that is ok,  I heard someone ask a media guy the other day where they measured the RH and he told the caller it was on the top right of the windshield.   LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, toyotatim said:

HUH?,  I am confused, I thought a tie down shock was designed to hold the springs down.   

Wouldnt a shock designed to hold upward like that be counter productive to keeping the nose on the ground?  

Where can you find a shock that is designed to pick up a car/truck?  I have never seen one.

Shocks are designed to regulate how fast the car goes down or comes up. 

I thought springs supplied the energy to lift the car/truck up.  Am I wrong?

I think you are simply trying to make a point, which I assume you will continue to push for the foreseeable future.  However, to explain one more time:

Springs hold the vehicle up to the vehicle's designed ride height and handle any weight transfer taking place as the vehicle accelerates, brakes or turns. 

Shocks moderate how slowly the springs compress on compression and how slowly the springs rebound on rebound. If the shock is valved strong on compression, it slows the rate at which the spring compresses. If the shock is valved strong on rebound, it slows the rate at which the spring rebounds. 

If the shock is valved very strong on rebound, the shock dramatically slows down the rate that the associated spring rebounds.  And in the case of our NASCAR DQ, the spring was not strong enough (or partially collapsed) to overcome the high rebound rate of one, or both, front shocks. The shocks (or perhaps only one shock) did not allow the spring to return the vehicle to its legal ride height.  

If a more detailed response is needed to un-confuse you, may I suggest you get in touch with one of our very good shock dealers in Texas.

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I think you are simply trying to make a point, which I assume you will continue to push for the foreseeable future. 

Nick, I'll just quit replying and see what happens....lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick, could you enlighten us once more to what a "competitive" set of front shocks cost these days?

You told me the number a couple of years ago and it was in the thousands if I'm not mistaken.

I guess the $5.00 a piece ones I bought as a teenager at Sears (guaranteed for life) won't cut it anymore.

One more thing after you tell us the price; Is it the engineering or the materials that make these shocks

out of reach for most people?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, King237 said:

Nick, could you enlighten us once more to what a "competitive" set of front shocks cost these days?

You told me the number a couple of years ago and it was in the thousands if I'm not mistaken.

I guess the $5.00 a piece ones I bought as a teenager at Sears (guaranteed for life) won't cut it anymore.

One more thing after you tell us the price; Is it the engineering or the materials that make these shocks

out of reach for most people?

nah its the fact  people will pay for it .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, regarding the cost of those "competitive" shocks.

1) Shocks that are allowed to be "competitive" under the rules are not as expensive as they used to be. Trade secrets were the biggest driver early on which meant the shocks were in short supply while the racers were in a high demand mode.  The law of supply and demand ruled and prices were high early in the "tie down" era.

2) The really high-price "competitive" shocks are those that are illegally built for classes requiring "stock" shocks. Pure stocks, bombers, eco stocks and some lower modiifeds, etc, all require stock shocks with traditional valving.  The high cost comes from having to fit all the trick stuff into that stock shock body while making the body appear exactly like all the other stock shocks in that class. Tech officials who deal with those classes usually are not familiar wiht the tie-down revolution that has taken place in the "higher" classes and are only now beginning to realize that cars that run with their noses half an inch off the racing surface the whole way around the track might be in possession of a set of those might expensive shocks.

I hope I have not confused toytoatim too much this time.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, King237 said:

Nick, could you enlighten us once more to what a "competitive" set of front shocks cost these days?

You told me the number a couple of years ago and it was in the thousands if I'm not mistaken.

I guess the $5.00 a piece ones I bought as a teenager at Sears (guaranteed for life) won't cut it anymore.

One more thing after you tell us the price; Is it the engineering or the materials that make these shocks

out of reach for most people?

King I can tell you on our mini sprint the four shocks we got from CSI were right at $2400 for the set. We just bent one and had to send it back to get a new shaft and rebuild another one and then dyno the other two.  That cost us $365.00.  But I will say this was probably the best investment we have on this car.  We ran box stock Pro Shocks on our sprint car and you never really knew what you were getting. But these shocks and their adjustments make a huge difference. 

I also have heard of some super late model teams that have close to 5 figures in the 4 shocks on the car. So the old adage of "Speed Costs Money How Fast You Want to Go?"

IMG_1364.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, NickHolt said:

I hope I have not confused toytoatim too much this time.

I found out I may not be the one confused.  I called the shock boys and they laughed at me when i told them I wanted a shock that would pick my car up.   They told me to call the lowrider shop and get some hydraulics if that is what I wanted. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're not confused, toyotatim.

Now, I'd like to sell you one or two of my world-famous "Lighter Than Air Chassis."

I'm having a pre-Fourth of July special on them this week . Call me for pricing.

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is awesome.  It seems the only guy on here with real sense is always ganged up on by the regulars.  Rock on Timmy.

Chastain won again this past weekend and passed tech.  They must have gotten ahold of some of them lowrider hydraulics to pick the truck up after the race.  He used a junker to beat the spoon-fed boys in them KBM trucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TexasTornado said:

This is awesome.  It seems the only guy on here with real sense is always ganged up on by the regulars.  Rock on Timmy.

Howdy Texas Tornado....Beg to differ, we aren't ganging up on Tim, merely having a discussion about shocks and what they cost (and what they do)

We're somewhat perplexed and confused because we know what shocks do and simply disagree with what Tim says. Most of us are over the age of 60 (me) and been around long

enough to know what they do. When our knowledge is questioned, we rely on smarter and more knowledgeable people than ourselves (Nick) and that's as nice as I can  put it.

I am simply fascinated at the technology and the cost of speed (as Josh42 states above). Please don't read into this as an attack on Tim, it isn't. We just won't be told that a duck dives under concrete when we know it flies. Stirring the pot on LSSZ will be challenged by facts...that's my attraction to this site

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WELL SAID KING  we are all friends even if we never meet .but we are old and set in our ways and dont like someone bouncing on our balloon .but its nice for someone even Toyota to challenge the old crows . I dont have a problem with Toyota . let him speak let me disagree . that is whats great about this sight . and nick well he knows more than many of us will ever learn in two life times .he cant turn a wrench worth darn .I seen it lol.. but I will not  question his knowledge  when it comes to anything below the motor  making a car turn he has proved  it many time over  … tex tom has us all beat on history ..

Edited by HiTech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have deleted a post or two in this thread. 

For the record: 

Shocks do not pick up a car. Springs pick up / hold up the car up. 

Tie-down shocks do not lift anything. Springs do the lifting.

If the springs are not strong enough (or if collapsed) to overcome the aggressive valving in a tie-down shock, the car may not return to its legal ride height in time (or ever) to pass whatever tech inspection the sanctioning body requires.

If anyone chooses to disagree with this post, please take it up with me in private. I am done defending something I never said.

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2019 at 10:18 PM, HiTech said:

but its nice for someone even Toyota to challenge the old crows . I dont have a problem with Toyota . let him speak let me disagree . that is whats great about this sight . and nick well he knows more than many of us will ever learn in two life times .he cant turn a wrench worth darn .I seen it lol.. but I will not  question his knowledge  when it comes to anything below the motor  making a car turn he has proved  it many time over  … tex tom has us all beat on history ..

True True True......ALL OF IT......Learn so much from this site!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to stir this pot some more, but some shocks do pick up a car. You all are forgetting about gas charged shocks. The gas pressure within the shock adds upward lift (even though it's extremely small), and shock builders have to take that into consideration when valving a tie down shock. In other words, if you push down the front end of a BBSS car with pressurized tie down shocks it may return all the way to ride height, but if you replace that shock with a non pressurized tie down it may have a greater amount of what's called "Hysteresis" which is the difference between where the rebound would return with no resistance and where it actually returns. All suspensions have hysteresis because all suspensions have resistance/friction. Now don't jump all over me, it's the truth.

 

Edited by hray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the additional clarifications, Rusty.

And, of course, don't forget about the effect that cooling tire temperatures have on ride height. As the tires cool, their circumference decreases by a tiny amount.

In fact, there are dozens of other factors that can play a tiny role in ride height such as ambient air pressure, altitude, dissipating heat energy in various suspension components (bushings, etc). .... 

But the real issue here is that someone miscalculated how quickly the car would return to legal ride height and the team got busted. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on man, how does it know when to pick it up?    Is it hydraulic?  Flip a swith?  Come on man, stop it

Edited by toyotatim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the good old boy theory has been shot down.   Christopher Bell with Joe Gibbs Racing has bden disqualified for ride height violation.   Just to be clear, it us not the shock guys fault.   The shocks were disconnected dyring the process.     That eliminates the two previous media attacks in innocent people

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Stevebrown said:

Well, the good old boy theory has been shot down.   Christopher Bell with Joe Gibbs Racing has bden disqualified for ride height violation.   Just to be clear, it us not the shock guys fault.   The shocks were disconnected dyring the process.     That eliminates the two previous media attacks in innocent people

Then the obvious alternatives are: 1) the spring(s) lost rate (or collapsed) during the event, or 2) the suspension adjustments made during the event lowered the car past the legal height.  In either all of the scenarios discussed so far, the crew chief, suspension engineer or shock guy (or all of the above) were responsible. 

I continue to maintain that in most instances of failed post-race height checks, the tie down shock(s) were valved to strongly to allow the spring(s) to lift the car to legal ride height. 

Thanks for the new information, Steve.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×