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toyotatim

2019 Nascar

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Kurt Bush has a new ride and the new rules package should make things even more interesting for 2019.   The more fans talk about the excitement, the better chances are of getting sponsors attention.  That is what drives the sport.  The track at Marion could get a huge boost with the help of Nascars marketing power and local fans excitement about Nascar.  Lets get that 3/8+ miler build and shoot for a Speed 51 live broadcast of the Alamo 200 by year 3.   Get them Pro/Super Late Models ordered and lets get this party started

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The worst thing HMP , maybe Longhorn and the Marion track is to go NASCAR sanction. It hurt San Antonio Speedway more than it helped it. And that was when NASCAR was a bigger thing than it is now.Talk up NASCAR , announce about it or even show Saturday night NASCAR races on TV at the track  but DON'T  go sanction. If Texas grows to three asphalt tracks the best thing they can do is make it where the racers can race at all the tracks with few changes from their home tracks rules. Dirt racing has the luxury of IMCA rules being dominant.Maybe asphalt needs an rule package like that. Now is the time to do that since there is now only one but it could be three. I know it sounds good in theory and it is hard to do since each track has to take care of its own first. At the very least San Antonio and Austin should be the same.Just saying.

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I am sure the guys liked the $30,000 at the end of they year.   Did you see the attention at when it was Sanctioned?  Man, they had big sponsors, billboards, TV Commercials, Nascar even sent a film crew down to do one.  The money was flowing.  It makes landing sponsors easier.   Dont say it is necessary, look at the quality of cars at Five Flags.  But the most successful short track in Texas ever was Nascar Sanctioned.  That is just facts man, not opinion. 

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"But the most successful short track in Texas ever was Nascar Sanctioned.  That is just facts man, not opinion. "

Then why did the asphalt tracks barely make 40 years open.  I can already think on track that has been open for over 50 years. Nascar sanction probably isnt the answer. Common rules strict tech and force passing will always help.

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47 minutes ago, arob said:

What was the most successful asphalt NASCAR short track?

 

Bowman Gray longest weekly sanctioned track

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People go to Bowman Gray for races? If NASCAR was so great, why is SAS closed? Or Odessa in Missouri or Irwindale and IRP short track. Hell they even went dirt awhile. IRP thrived on USAC races as I remember Thursday Night Thunder fondly. I'm sure people involved with SAS will disagree with the "money was flowing" statement. 

Edited by top_shelf_12

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Being NASCAR sanctioned meant that the track:

- had the right to use the NASCAR name in all promotional endeavors. This was only valuable if the local manager knew enough about leveraging this asset to make it worth the hefty sanctioning fees imposed by NASCAR. I only know of one SAS promoter who actually used the sanction to generate money at the front gate.. 

- could participate in a national driver competition that allowed dues-paying NASCAR drivers to compete for a fairly substantial year-end points fund . However, to many competitors (and some promoters) the system was clear as mud. In order to figure the points out, one needed accurate information from all the participating tracks and access to the weighted spreadsheet. The weights assigned to finishing positions varied from week to week depending on a whole bunch of different factors such as car count, whether they had heat races or not, how many laps, type of track, what division they were in, and several other mysterious factors. To many, the system didn't seem to be transparent and it led to some bad feelings among those not seeing much of a return on their annual and weekly NASCAR fees. And several promoters i had contact with at the time felt that the deal seemed to favor certain tracks over others.  And when asked by the the drivers how the system worked, promoters were often embarrassed to admit that they had no really good idea themselves. Not good for morale 

- got a freebie from one of the NASCAR sponsors, like red paint from Winston, a scoreboard from someone, caution lights from someone, etc, but nothing from NASCAR itself. 

- received administrative support from NASCAR.  Frankly, they simply kept track of their own books to make sure all the competitors and track staff had paid for their NASCAR license and entered the racing results provided by the individual tracks into their spreadsheet to keep track of the driver points. 

- received management advice from the NASCAR professionals.  This amounted to a occasional visits by a low ranking NASCAR "official."  

- could use NASCAR to be an impartial arbitrator regarding competition decisions made by the track - like DQs, tech issues, interpersonal disputes, penalties, etc, brought by competitors. Basically, NASCAR simply asked the track manager what he/she wanted NASCAR to say and that was how things were decided.  I know this for a fact since I was directly involved in several of those disputes. 

In the end, every SAS promoter - and I've known them all personally - either declined to have the track NASCAR sanctioned at all or dropped the sanction after a few years of struggling to make it work. Perhaps a SAS promoter actually made money from the NASCAR sanction, but I don't know who that might have been.

NASCAR is a name that virtually everyone recognizes and toyotatim is correct when has says that the name itself can be leveraged into a revenue stream.  But that takes management skills not often found in the local racing community.

 

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4 hours ago, top_shelf_12 said:

People go to Bowman Gray for races? If NASCAR was so great, why is SAS closed? Or Odessa in Missouri or Irwindale and IRP short track. Hell they even went dirt awhile. IRP thrived on USAC races as I remember Thursday Night Thunder fondly. I'm sure people involved with SAS will disagree with the "money was flowing" statement. 

Just for the record, Irwindale is still open and under new management until at least the end of 2019.  The outdoor all-purpose mall and entertainment complex fell through.  Last I heard the people managing it now have strong racing ties and want to buy it outright.  .

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I was wondering how many tracks are still "NASCAR Home Tracks" so here is the breakdown:

86 Nascar Home Tracks Via their Nascar Home Tracks Page

26 In different countries:

Canada: 12

Mexico: 8

Europe: 6

60 in USA

6 Tracks are not really home tracks: Bristol, Dover, Iowa, New Hampshire, Sonoma, Watkins Glen which we all know do not run weekly race programs.

Nick brought up a lot of good info about the NASCAR Sanction which he has stated many times on this website as yes you get the NASCAR name its not worth all the headaches that go along with it.  Yes you get a shot at the $30,000 paycheck at the end but you have to ask :

A. Will racers run 18 to 20 weekends a year to be able to compete with the tracks on the East Coast.  These are the number of races you would have to run to break into top 10 at Division 4. When Brandon and them won the NASCAR championship they could run that many weeks a year but things have changed since then.   Most of those tracks that ran that many races were Dirt tracks there was some Asphalt tracks but that was ones that have a rich history of racing (Bowman Grey, Hickory, Madison, La Crosse, South Boston). 

B. Will the promoters even want to be NASCAR Sanctioned? You have to remember Houston was then they dropped it. 

I think we need to focus on getting the tracks built, and run with common rules of Houston, Pensacola, Mobile where racers can come in and run and not have to change everything under the sun.  That was a big problem when SAS was open under the Nascar Sanction their rules were completely different from Thunderhill, Corpus, and Houston.  During Texas Asphalt Racing hey days you have 4 asphalt tracks running and all 4 were running different rules.  Towards the end the tracks did come together and have common rules and had great purses. But you had some racers that would only run Houston and not run THR even though rules were the same.  So yes your forward thinking is good and you have a bright outlook with big money races but first lets get the tracks actually up and running.  Give them a year or two to get the kinks worked out before they start throwing these big races.  Smiley Sitton told me and a few others one time that for a racetrack to be really successful and run smooth the track needs to go through about 3 promoters before things really smooth out.  If you look back at a lot of the local tracks you will see that trend.

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You can always find a reason to have objections to something.   Hating on Nascar is counter productive to Mr Essie trying to get a track built.  He may say, screw it, too many haters..........

Mr Mandabach used the Nascar sanctioning and worked to its finest.  Huge sponsors came on board and even Championship bonuses from large Local Corp Sponsors.   There is no reason that same model would not work right here in San Antonio.  Corp sponsors are everywhere here.  Whataburger, Toyota, Valero, USAA, HEB, Frost, Chesapeake Energy, Marathon Oil, EOG Resources, etc.  Their names are all over sporting events.   Time to cheat em up and go man,

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4 hours ago, toyotatim said:

You can always find a reason to have objections to something.   Hating on Nascar is counter productive to Mr Essie trying to get a track built.  He may say, screw it, too many haters..........

Mr Mandabach used the Nascar sanctioning and worked to its finest.  Huge sponsors came on board and even Championship bonuses from large Local Corp Sponsors.   There is no reason that same model would not work right here in San Antonio.  Corp sponsors are everywhere here.  Whataburger, Toyota, Valero, USAA, HEB, Frost, Chesapeake Energy, Marathon Oil, EOG Resources, etc.  Their names are all over sporting events.   Time to cheat em up and go man,

If any potential track owner doesn't have the whole picture - haters included - they are going in with blinders on and will face reality pretty quickly. And if a potential track owner withdraws from his/her plans simply because they will face negativity along the way, then they probably shouldn't even consider being a track owner or promoter. It comes with the territory whether anyone wants to admit it or not.  Here on LSSZ I do my best to keep the local scene free from most of the negativity, but have you been to Facebook lately? Or any number of other less-moderated racing sites where input is allowed from the public?  Even Speed51 has it's fair share of boo-birds in spite of their almost constant monitoring of their on-line products.

Secondly, I totally agree with you on Mr. Mandabach's ability to round up meaningful partnerships and sponsorships. He was the reason HMP did so very well during his management tenure there. Check out this interview I did with him a few years back. The fact is that you will note that John never mentioned NASCAR as one of the reasons why the track was successful during his time there.

 

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THE WORD NASCAR isnt nearly as big as it use to be ..nascar has its own problem self induced  that is . folks just dont spend much time speaking about it anymore .at work that was all the customers would talk about if I mentioned racing or they knew we were racers , .when nick was part of sas  back when it was Winston cup   nascar was very popular .heck I got people to go watch races at sas by saying Winston cup track ..my wife still has  the Winston cup jacket she received from sas track owner when nick worked there or ran it either way .. .. I dont dislike nascar it just got boring and predictable once they started car of tomorrow and gone down sense .cookie cutter tracks .shutting down short tracks that got them where they were at the time  and then started running on Saturday nights . and they look nothing like a Saturday night show anymore .. even the cars dont impress me much …..I know tim is big time nascar and  that is great .but dont tell us nascar is as great as it use to be or better ..nascar isnt any where near what it was .. and I agree with nick .if a track owner wont build a track cuz some one may not be happy .they should not build it .. a strong owner manager that knows how to  over look the negative and moves past it  . can succeed … he has to be able to promote .have a set of rules run by them .no favorite driver or team .all get treated the same ..regardless .my wife has scored  for sas tida .cc speedway .and sts .. I raced back then and she did me no favors .our son races and she does him no favors .that is how a track must be run ..no favors ..

Edited by HiTech

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For the record I wasn't hating on NASCAR.  I am just saying I don't see the value in having the NASCAR Sanction anymore.  In years past it was a big thing to hear about the Dodge NASCAR Weekly Racing program and their champions. Now you don't hardly hear anything about it anymore.  I do think with the dragstrip and the circle track together there is room for cross promotion and split sponsorships. 

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Thanks PA for the info on Irwindale, glad to see it's still up and going. I grew up going to CCS and SAS so it is sad to see the state of asphalt racing in Texas. Hopefully HMP can get some momentum but Houston is having problems on both surfaces as it appears BGS is gone, Willis is gone, 105 always has people complaining and criticizing, think HMP and GT are running Limited schedules but could be wrong. CCS is dark for a few years, THR completely gone, SAS all but gone. I do wish the new SA track well and hope they don't get discouraged and all these people that clamor for a track will actually go and support them. Don't think they need NASCAR but I see the argument of NASCAR being successful trickling down to help local tracks succeed, but in an indirect way. I know promoters have tried on asphalt, hosting big money races and get a 💩 turnout on both ends. Now with asphalt tracks gone or limited, how many of those cars/drivers are still around and willing to go asphalt or did they convert to dirt? Will new cars/drivers come out? Who will carry the local Saturday night track? I guarantee it won't be NASCAR.

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I would not expect Nascar to carry them at all.  Nascar can help them in Marketing efforts, just like they do numerous other tracks.  Mr. Mandabach used them and was highly successful.  They can give you the tools, you just have to know how to use them.  But  they dont subsidize tracks.  Bowman Grey comes top mind when you talk about success utilizing the Nascar sanction.  They know how to market. 

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Nascar or not just need to have someone in the seat that knows marketing.  Cant tell you how many times I would tow with an open trailer and stop at a gas station 30 miles form THR/CTS and people ask oh were do you race at? Their reply was humm I never hear of that place before. 

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The end of Adam 12's post is why I am so damn determined to get our sport and shove it in front of as many people as possible.

For the non traditional race fan that does start with the TV races then teach em how it's done right locally and regionally. 

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Roger that, Mr, Rodney.  People associate stock car racing with Nascar.  The first thing everyone asks when they see one of these cars on a open trailer is "Is that a Nascar?".     They have marketing power to attract fans of all ages.  From Game Stop to Booze sponsors.  

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   Its not NASCAR's fault Texas has so many closed tracks. I don't know the real reason, only what I have experienced.  Texas is not really an oval track community, its more about High School football and sports. I think that's because more people are involved personally that at the "local" track. 

   That being said, racing has only a finite population yet many promoters are still looking for the magic that will bring all those "new" fans and competitors when the real answer is under their feet. I have watched serious racing families leave the sport primarily because they become "undesirables" due to structural changes of the politics. Loosing these families reduces the potential fan and participant base yet I have never seen ANY promoter actively attempt to recover these people. As a racing fan I would rather watch NASCAR than ANY local racing where I don't know anyone. So would the "average" fan. I believe this is because NASCAR makes a huge effort to promote the identity of their drivers. Meanwhile local tracks support their "correct" racers while shunning anyone that dares to be different or opposing views. So what we have is a few private clubs trying to get fans to appreciate their affluence, thus preaching to the choir., while wanting the product being sold to be responsible for the production costs. And also trying to sell everywhere the exact same show. Almost 100% race your Chevrolet and show off how much you have or pain you can absorb. Dinosaur designs that have no reflection of the cars on the road today, thus no identification with the average working class person. Those people are the ones that appreciate cars.

  There's no way to identify local racing with NASCAR, even the unsuccessful driver could afford to buy most local tracks. Texas people as a rule don't make the money other states have, thus we have less to spend as a State for recreation. The solution as I see it is not to only host those with great resources but create a place where a little goes a long way and use the numbers game to create profit. The old adage "build it and they will come" does not work with a person with a family making $400 a week but is expected to spend $100 or more to bring his family to race and watch. Or especially spend $60 to bring the family only to watch other flaunt their resources. Yes even NASCAR is making an attempt to reduce ticket costs to attract more families.

   Its easier to blame NASCAR that find new ideas. I'm watching L87 growing with absolutely NO expensive cars but instead hosts a venue where a working stiff CAN get involved in the sport. Other tracks treat them like a necessary diversion. With 50 entries last race it will be interesting to see where this goes.

    So go ahead an mock NASCAR and hope it is destroyed because its not how your own experiences are reflected. I personally have spent 49 years of being involved in racing without any budget other than race winnings. Like the movie 6 Pack, the last race paid for the next one. Now all that is gone but I don't hate NASCAR only because they are still going strong. Instead I'm looking for a way for a poor guy to continue with the sport or will another racing family fade away in the distance. The population is shrinking.

  I'm curious how many people are EX racers and why. I believe this is the place to start. JMO, as always.

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3 hours ago, TSRSONETWO said:

Nascar or not just need to have someone in the seat that knows marketing.  Cant tell you how many times I would tow with an open trailer and stop at a gas station 30 miles form THR/CTS and people ask oh were do you race at? Their reply was humm I never hear of that place before. 

This is very well put....ask yourself now, how many people tow open trailer these days? My car is far from clean but it never stops people from asking where I race it. Unfortunately, a lot of people still have Baytown in there head and think I race dirt.

I personally never cared for the NASCAR santioning, it really did nothing for us besides being forced to get a license every year. This all comes back to promoting and getting people out there to crave what we have.

As Amy Hogan put it in several drivers meetings....we're showman. 

I'm looking forward to running at more tracks than just one too and completely agree with having ONE rule package that can be used acrossed all the tracks. 

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5 hours ago, thumper said:

  I'm curious how many people are EX racers and why. I believe this is the place to start. JMO, as always.

This is not an invitation to those who feel they been hurt by a local track or their officials to start bashing or listing their grievances. This site does its best to protect local tracks and Texas-based racing series  and if any bashing should start in this thread, it will be promptly removed. 

Nick

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Well as a fan I am more excited for the 2019 racing season to start than I have for quite some time. The reason being I have three great tracks close by to choose from. South Texas Speedway , Texana Raceway Park and I-37 Speedway. The neat thing about all three is they have good people running them. All three last year put a good product on the track and are exceptionally fan friendly.All three had good to great car counts. And hearing that there may be a new asphalt track outside of San Antonio and the possible return of Longhorn things are looking great for the race fan in South Texas.I know every track has "issues" with racers. As a fan as long as they put on an entertaining night with good car counts I don't care who is there or not there. I'll cheer and support the ones that are there. If you as a fan don't go to a track  because driver  X isn't there you may be missing some great racing. So thank you VERY much to Mr's Whiteaker , Doyon and Densman and their staffs for all the great entertainment you all provided in 2018. Can't wait to see what is in store for us in 2019! Sure gets off to a great start with the Jerry Whiteaker  Memorial at South Texas Speedway for the BIG $$$ ! Hurry up March 2019!!

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   Nick, I think the biggest reason a person becomes an EX racer is because of finances. Second would be time, then things like age, kids and in Texas the so many miles between tracks. McAllen had a huge family of racers and the Valley had some of the best drivers in the state.  Most are EX racers now because of at least one of these reasons. Has nothing to do with bashing, unlike how NASCAR is abused here. A non involved fan is more knowledgeable with NASCAR than any local racing. Seeing other "racers" bash it is cause for wondering if racing is an accepted sport. But believe me NASCAR still has a great following. In spite of our biased opinions. As the leader of a racing forum I would think you would support ALL forms of motorsports, politics notwithstanding . Not the case evidently. But its your forum to lead. Like Bobby Maupin often says...... "the view never changes" .

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You are not the only one who doesn't understand why folks are allowed to tell about their experiences with NASCAR,  whether they are positive or negative. 

I have explained the differences in the level of moderation between local Texas short tracks and Texas-based short track series verses major national and international racing corporations, such as F1 and NASCAR, many times on here. No sense in boring folks with yet another long-winded explanation.

G.B., I'm mildly surprised that you felt the need to call me out about how the site is moderated though. You have have been free to express your strongly-held and often-controversial views on this site for many years and, not surprisingly, not everyone agrees with your point of view.  You may (or may not) be aware that over the years I have removed (or edited) several posts that bashed / ridiculed you or your point of view. I try to pay special attention to threads that seem to invite bashing so that I can either edit or remove those posts before folks have a chance to read them. I don't always succeed, but I do my best.. 

Nick

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