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jracer98

TI – coilover eliminator on front suspension.

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So If I understand this correctly, Same power to weight ratio and 2012 rules = less handling front suspension which equals ill handling race car. Will produce less cautions ? Don't penalize the Thinkers most of which are not spending more money just accomplishing more w/ what they have.

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Why don't we just rent mods and late models from the racetrack like the Naskarts? That way everyone's legal no questions asked....

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I think the 500lb minimum spring rate has to do with the fact that the lowest off the shelf spring rate from all the major race spring manufacturers is 500lbs.

I'm not comfortable with rules limiting spring rates, but it means the difference between a $60 spring and a $250 spring.

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I think the 500lb minimum spring rate has to do with the fact that the lowest off the shelf spring rate from all the major race spring manufacturers is 500lbs.

I'm not comfortable with rules limiting spring rates, but it means the difference between a $60 spring and a $250 spring.

 

Oh...So everyone is going to be on a $60.00 spring ? Thanks Ray you are always on top of it.

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So If I understand this correctly, Same power to weight ratio and 2012 rules = less handling front suspension which equals ill handling race car. Will produce less cautions ?

 

 

I see how it reads like that but that was not where I was going in the 2nd paragraph. I was reacting to the sense of pride people were attaching to the word "elite".

The track has had to use the softball "ten run mercy rule" to end the last couple of races in the elite division.

 

"The track" needs more car count and less cautions. They are taking a gamble that changing the rules will help car count. In regards to yellows, over the years, I have seen more cautions caused by drivers than I have by suspensions :)

 

A suggestion could be to make yellow laps count. If the elite field only gets to run 6 green flag laps out of 35, so be it...they'll learn.

 

just my opinion

 

jay

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I think the 500lb minimum spring rate has to do with the fact that the lowest off the shelf spring rate from all the major race spring manufacturers is 500lbs.

I'm not comfortable with rules limiting spring rates, but it means the difference between a $60 spring and a $250 spring.

 

Oh...So everyone is going to be on a $60.00 spring ? Thanks Ray you are always on top of it.

 

 

That's something I hadn't considered in the original (remember?) topic. In the eliminator deal, if it's like a coilover, it's flat on both ends. That would allow you to run low cost, low rate "rear" springs up front instead of chasing Draco front springs etc all over.

That's interesting.

 

jay

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A suggestion could be to make yellow laps count. If the elite field only gets to run 6 green flag laps out of 35, so be it...they'll learn.

 

just my opinion

 

jay

 

No, they didnt.

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Oh...So everyone is going to be on a $60.00 spring ? Thanks Ray you are always on top of it.

 

Hey zip, I don't know why that put a bug up your ass, but I only meant if the intent of the rule change was to try to contain costs, then not allowing spring rates below 500 lbs would keep you from HAVING to spend the extra money. Naturally there are some teams that will still spend $250 for a 500 lb spring.

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Oh...So everyone is going to be on a $60.00 spring ? Thanks Ray you are always on top of it.

 

Hey zip, I don't know why that put a bug up your ass, but I only meant if the intent of the rule change was to try to contain costs, then not allowing spring rates below 500 lbs would keep you from HAVING to spend the extra money. Naturally there are some teams that will still spend $250 for a 500 lb spring.

 

No...No don't take it wrong theres no bug here and I don't have much of an ass left. Just pointing out what you just clarified some will buy ???$$$ priced springs. The next logical step will be for spring manufactures to produce some bad ass springs to meet the rules but perform more like SS setup thats kinda what I'm getting at no one that is going to run up front is going to be saving any money. No disrespect intended Ray.

 

Just sayin...My little opinion

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bishop,

You're right about the geometry. It never really worked all that well for Larson either. They finally advertised it as protection for the shocks - not in the A arms when they get knocked off.

With the correct geometry cantilever DOES work though. Indy cars have been using it for years - even using cantilever torsion bar setups. You need a 1:1 base ratio and a pushrod and fulcrum that is within the arc of the control arm a major lacking in the home engineered example i first gave. One of the benefits is with an adjustable fulcrum you can use a 650 lb per inch spring and tune it to 660 or even 640 ( or any number really) if you want. And tuning also changes the springs effective frequency as well as weight rate! Of course then you have to match the shock to the total inertia and frequency attained - but thats a given in any setup. OR you could even tune the spring to the shock instead of the other way around!!

A good example:

post-11942-1305346746.jpg

Edited by jwmbishop

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History:

 

We started with 80+ cars counts. The consi transferred 4 to C main, the c sent 4 to B, the b sent four to A. The folks that always ran the consi and c complained that cost was the only thing keeping them from the b or A so rules were implemeted that reduced what the whole field could do. Two years later the folks that were always in the A were still there and always in the A. The folks that were always in the consi were still in the consi and we saw 50 cars, then 40 and then only 30 - the front runners were penalized and the the back runners were subsidized. Eventually we saw 20 and 10 cars fields and the Super with wide open rules were gone replaced with cookie cutters and bone stock classes (wreckem stockers - cars that are barely in control). The field makeup did not change - front runners still ran the front and rear runners still ran in the rear.

 

The cars that left the program were the middle. I am middle america in both intellegence and finance. The rules that equalize are a clear message that the promoters want a major division of class in both aspects as that is what sells tickets - goliath running clean over David with fans paying to see in hopes of an upset and the excitement that brings... Even with more and more restrictive rules the records still creep faster and faster. And when the touring series that blistered the track came there were NO empty seats (8000 in attendance) as in the regular weekend events (5-6K). Funny ain't it?

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The next logical step will be for spring manufactures to produce some bad ass springs to meet the rules but perform more like SS setup thats kinda what I'm getting at no one that is going to run up front is going to be saving any money. No disrespect intended Ray.

 

In '04 Lonny Richardson showed me a new setup the Craftman trucks were running. He thought it would work on our modified and gave me the NASCAR big bar set up, but didn't have lite enough springs or the right shocks for a 2600 lb car. He gave me a contact at HyperCoil and they sold me the springs @ $435 each. Steve Turner had Bilstein custom valve a set of steel rebuildable shocks. We instantly picked up .05 sec and set new track records at HMP, CC Speedway and Red River. Then the complaining began. Our shocks were DQ'ed because they were rebuildable, so I bought a set of non-rebuildable Bilsteins valved exactly the same. Only problem was the non-rebuildables were $250 ea instead of $145 ea for the rebuildables. Our front hubs were alum Howes which were DQ'ed so I bought a set of lite weight steel that were actually lighter than the alum ones-only twice as expensive. And this little dance went on and on for the rest of the year.

Point is ZIPPYHIPPY, you are exactly right. Those that want to run up front will seek out the fastest setup/parts no matter what it cost----even tho the class only pays $1000 to win. It's not about the winnings $$$.

Edited by hray

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History:............

 

The cars that left the program were the middle. ...........

 

In my above illustration that's exactly what happened. The back markers didn't care - they knew they were going to run at the back anyway. The front runners tried to figure out what we were doing. The middle guys just complained which caused tech to make several "rules clarifications" that year.

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And it will always be this way:

 

1) the fast guys with money will ALWAYS say that changing the rules from what they already have purchased (usually a small fortune) will cost too much.

 

2) the same teams will try to round up support for their position, frequently putting pressure on those they have "helped" over the years to also put pressure on the track to maintain their financial and performance advantages.

 

3) if the above doesn't work, implied or threatened boycotts surface leaving the track to decide which pressure to yeild to... and usually the money talks and the B.S. walks like in the rest of life.

 

In order for any sort of even playing field to be viable, the person in charge has to weather the storm and stick to his'/her guns. This is not an easy task since quite often several of the dominant teams actually do park their cars in a huff (sorry, James.. LOL).

 

Do you think the money teams liked it when I imposed a one-tire-week-rule at SAS back in the mid 90's? Ha. Sure, they just went with the flow without so much as a whimper - NOT! Do you think applying the rules to all teams the same sat well with some of the teams who had made sure their were financially in bed with the track? Think again.

 

But the fact remains that the car counts more than doubled during this three-year span in spite of the constant bitching and moaning from the front-runners.

 

Now, did the guys at the middle of the pack suddenly become frequent race winners? Nope. The same bunch that won before were still winning. The difference was that the mid-pack guys suddenly saw they were on the same level playing field as the big boys and dusted off their parked cars.

 

It's history, folks. Not idle speculation. Want more cars? Level the playing field. Yep. You'll lose a few of the top dogs for a while, but all the teams who left SAS in a fit of righteous indignation came back in one form or another to race again. And I believe that's because - deep down inside where they didn't have to put up a front - what they really wanted was a level playing field too.

 

Nick

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But Nick, leveling the playing field doesn't always mean tightening the rules. Take the modified engine rules at Five Flags for instance. You can run anything you want as long as it's not dry sump. So the guy that can't afford a $20000 motor or even a $9500 worked over crate can still be competitive with a $4500 383 stroker. We had the same experience racing pro lates in PA. Crates and open motors (including dry sumps) were handy capped so you never knew from week to week which was going to win. You'll get far more car count if you open up the rules and handy cap them equally. I've got no problem with restricting tires or even shock costs, but don't tell me how I can valve them. If I can only spend $150/shock and I want to get it custom valved for $50, then the shock can't cost over $100 - simple as that.

I thought HMP was on the right track when they adopted the open motor rule for Pro Lates, but the handy capping is so far out of wack you'd be stupid to run an open motor unless you want to run at the back. And what's even more confusing is all they had to do is go to any of the Midwest and East Coast track websites and copy their rules (we ran Motordrome and Jennerstown). Unless you really don't want open motors to be equal for whatever reason.

Edited by hray

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hray,

That handicapping is whats going on now. The bigger motor platforms are handicapped so the poor underpowerd crates have an equal chance. ;)

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hray,

That handicapping is whats going on now. The bigger motor platforms are handicapped so the poor underpowerd crates have an equal chance. ;)

LOL< LOL :lol::lol: That's exactly what I mean!! I'm still laughing.

In some circles that's not called handicapping, it's called kneecapping.

Edited by hray

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NEW RULES (GULF COAST MODIFIED RULES) WILL TAKE CARE OF SOME OF THIS NEXT YEAR. READ THE RULES FOR NEXT YEAR AR 5 FLAGS WEBSITE AND START PLANNING FOR NEXT YEAR BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE WILL HAVE.

Sure is a big conversation going on with John and myself!

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NEW RULES (GULF COAST MODIFIED RULES) WILL TAKE CARE OF SOME OF THIS NEXT YEAR. READ THE RULES FOR NEXT YEAR AR 5 FLAGS WEBSITE AND START PLANNING FOR NEXT YEAR BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE WILL HAVE.

Sure is a big conversation going on with John and myself!

 

Absolutely!

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For what it's worth..... Not only has this setup been on the car since 4/23 it has been there for all but 3 races this year including being seen by Ricky Brooks at Houston. Kinda funny how it didn"t get noticed when it is really hard to hide the front suspension on a MODIFIED after being through tech numerous times every weekend. It definately is not something that we felt was illegal per the rule book or we would not have done it. We welcomed everyone to look at it and ask about it. Howwever changes are already taking place and we will return to Thunderhill on May 21st and be fast as usual looking for 3 in a row!!

Ok, this is a very respectful posting, although it has lead the readers in my opinion to believe Ricky Brooks has blessed this car during his visit recently to HMP, my understanding was the 30 declined going through tech while Ricky Brooks was there, for whatever reason. Just saying...

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To me, if we didn't have the best car which i'm sure we don't, to run up front cause of lack of funds, it wouldn't matter to me anymore. I still had fun being out there on the track. Could be worse not being on the track at all. But, it would be nice to afford those expensive parts to have a chance to run upfront with the guys that have the bucks every once in a while if we could. :) I still have fun either way.

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For what it's worth..... Not only has this setup been on the car since 4/23 it has been there for all but 3 races this year including being seen by Ricky Brooks at Houston. Kinda funny how it didn"t get noticed when it is really hard to hide the front suspension on a MODIFIED after being through tech numerous times every weekend. It definately is not something that we felt was illegal per the rule book or we would not have done it. We welcomed everyone to look at it and ask about it. Howwever changes are already taking place and we will return to Thunderhill on May 21st and be fast as usual looking for 3 in a row!!

Ok, this is a very respectful posting, although it has lead the readers in my opinion to believe Ricky Brooks has blessed this car during his visit recently to HMP, my understanding was the 30 declined going through tech while Ricky Brooks was there, for whatever reason. Just saying...

it has led the readers to believe that because thats exactly what he did. he looked at the coilover eliminators and said something like "wow, thats a good idea. i never woulda thought of that" and if you dont know he happens to be a modified racer too. as for declining tech it was more like "i dont feel like being here all night" because ricky was pulling oil pans and in order to do so on our car the motor would of had to be pulled due to cross bracing under the pan which got cut off of the car the following monday and then passed tech after winning at thunderhill when jack pulled pans again. declining tech in houston had nothing to do with suspension because in that department it would have passed with flying colors. just saying...

 

with all legal intentions,

Dirty 30

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For what it's worth..... Not only has this setup been on the car since 4/23 it has been there for all but 3 races this year including being seen by Ricky Brooks at Houston. Kinda funny how it didn"t get noticed when it is really hard to hide the front suspension on a MODIFIED after being through tech numerous times every weekend. It definately is not something that we felt was illegal per the rule book or we would not have done it. We welcomed everyone to look at it and ask about it. Howwever changes are already taking place and we will return to Thunderhill on May 21st and be fast as usual looking for 3 in a row!!

Ok, this is a very respectful posting, although it has lead the readers in my opinion to believe Ricky Brooks has blessed this car during his visit recently to HMP, my understanding was the 30 declined going through tech while Ricky Brooks was there, for whatever reason. Just saying...

it has led the readers to believe that because thats exactly what he did. he looked at the coilover eliminators and said something like "wow, thats a good idea. i never woulda thought of that" and if you dont know he happens to be a modified racer too. as for declining tech it was more like "i dont feel like being here all night" because ricky was pulling oil pans and in order to do so on our car the motor would of had to be pulled due to cross bracing under the pan which got cut off of the car the following monday and then passed tech after winning at thunderhill when jack pulled pans again. declining tech in houston had nothing to do with suspension because in that department it would have passed with flying colors. just saying...

 

with all legal intentions,

Dirty 30

 

I believe you may have confused the word "interesting" and thought it meant "good" in your quote above. Regardless, we will never know how the word "interesting" would have been interpreted that night because your team for whatever reason chose not to find out when you chose to refuse tech. Anything else at this point is irrelevant. Let's move on.

 

As for the rest of this topic, not sure what good comes of beating a dead horse but feel free to pound away. I rather choose to spend my time and effort to continue on building the program through increasing attendance, increasing sponsorship, increasing purse and running a firm, fair and consistent race program. If anyone feels we are really failing you in those regards, please let me know and I will step aside and take up fishing. Otherwise, how about taking all this energy and put it to good use to get to the track and race hard as Mary Ann and I have worked our butts off to build a good program and great partnership between both tracks for the modifieds. I believe it is time for some to stop complaining, stop living in the past and start racing. But that's just opinion and I have been called stupid before. This last paragraph was in no way directed at the 30 modified team. God knows I don't need a fire extinguisher through my window for falsely accusing them of not racing. ;)

 

John Mandabach

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Oh, and one more thing...the bounty is now $3000 on Zak thanks to Trucks Drive America.

 

OK !......The 30 Team says they will take the money & be their @ HMP for the next race. As far as all these expensive parts, have you actually checked what Coil Elimiantors cost I believe the 30 car spent a whopping $89.00 a piece. It goes back to what has been said many different ways during this thread it is not always how much but what you do w/ it and the inventive ideas of the people or person behind the wrench. I say keep a class @ the local tracks that test and aplaud these craftsmen. Hey we could call them MODIFIEDS.

 

My opinion one more time.

Edited by ZIPPYHIPPY

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