jwmbishop Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 So I guess this wouldn't fly? yet costs nothing more than time to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I can remember 'back in the day' when guys would shove 2x4's inside their springs to stiffen them up(wouldn't actually help the spring, just reduce compression of it)....Wasn't anything in the rules about wood.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneedude Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 are yall really being serious.if your paying $3333.33 per shock (or the real name dampeners) on a saturday night race car then your stupid. I guess the top mods like the 30,91,39,33 etc just came back from the wind tunnel and are now on their way to the 7 post rig. Come on I suppose mark, bubba gale, jake kruger, zach hausler and all the other gulf coast mods are spending 10k on shocks. The real problem isn't shocks. Tire soaking isn't a prolem (plus soaking at thr and hmp don't work so good). Yea tech could be a little tougher, but guys aint gonna be want to rip there engine apart every week either. There is what 10 asphalt tracks at the most. All with different rules. Yet you got a dirt mod. You can go to just about any track and they have a modified class. Close to 100 tracks with tx,la.ms,al,fl. Yea it's got to do with money the fact that alot of people don't have as much as they use to. Thank god for crate motors last time I heard people are paying almost 18 dollars a gallon for race fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Actually I looked at the price of Track-tek 111 octane fuel yesterday at a local speed shop. 7.95 a gallon. Not quite 18 bucks. And as i see it, the gulf coast mod rules penalize the crates with a 50 pound penalty for aluminum heads. Not sure I believe the local track here will adopt this but it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzgqh6 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Do you mean what five flags has now is what THR will have next year? CORY, GO TO FIVE FLAGS WEBSITE - DRIVERS THEN RULES MDIFIED, IT WAS ANNOUNCED 2 WEEKS AGO THAT OUR RULES WILL MIRROR THE GULF COAST MODIFIED RULES FOR 2012. THE UPDATES FOR 2012 ARE IN HIGHLIGHTED IN YELLOW. GREAT RULE PACKAGE AND MUCH EASIER TO POLICE FOR JACK. THESE RULES WILL BE FOR MOBILE, PENSICOLA, OPP, MONTGOMERY, HOUSTON & KYLE. THE ONLY QUESTION FOR NOW IS WHAT BREAKS WILL THE CRATE MOTORS GET IF ANY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzgqh6 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 are yall really being serious.if your paying $3333.33 per shock (or the real name dampeners) on a saturday night race car then your stupid. I guess the top mods like the 30,91,39,33 etc just came back from the wind tunnel and are now on their way to the 7 post rig. Come on I suppose mark, bubba gale, jake kruger, zach hausler and all the other gulf coast mods are spending 10k on shocks. The real problem isn't shocks. Tire soaking isn't a prolem (plus soaking at thr and hmp don't work so good). Yea tech could be a little tougher, but guys aint gonna be want to rip there engine apart every week either. There is what 10 asphalt tracks at the most. All with different rules. Yet you got a dirt mod. You can go to just about any track and they have a modified class. Close to 100 tracks with tx,la.ms,al,fl. Yea it's got to do with money the fact that alot of people don't have as much as they use to. Thank god for crate motors last time I heard people are paying almost 18 dollars a gallon for race fuel. I CAN TELL YOU WHAT WE SPEND ON SHOCKS. 600.00 FOR A PAIR OF REBUILDABLE PENSKI'S AND 92.00 PER SHOCK FOR REBUILDABLE PRO SHOCKS AND WE LIKE THE PRO'S BETTER. ITS ALL ABOUT FINDING THE RIGHT SPRING AND SHOCK PACKAGE. WE DO NOT RACE 20 AND 300 LAP EVENTS AND YOU DO NOT NEED HIGH DOLLAR SHOCKS TO PLAY THIS GAME AND BE FAST. BUMP STOPS DONT CARE FOR THEM AND WITH RULE CHANGES FOR NEXT YEAR DONT HAVEE TO WORRY ABOUT THE EXPENSE OF PURCHASING THEM. DG 33 MOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneedude Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 dg 33 mod that is the point. Give me 10 grand and I will get you the best shocks around. I will go to chris davidson and karl edelman or john heil. Then with the left over money I can buy at least 8000 dollars worth of lotto tickets. And if I win I'll donate half to charity and the other half I'll split with all on lone star speedzone.sounds like a good idea to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latemodeloutlaw Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I have a suggestion....we should stop keeping score and at the end of the night everyone gets a first place trophy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Thank god for crate motors last time I heard people are paying almost 18 dollars a gallon for race fuel. I wasn't aware that the crate got better fuel economy. But I do thank god for crate RULES. When so cal circuits and sanctions went to the crate only rules I lost 37 long time customers. Those customers then got a motor that was 870 dollars more expensive than our "kit" (270 more than our full assembled), built to tolerances instead of blueprint spec, no local trackside support, no field service rebuildability, no low cost core replacement ability and had to turn to a new shop with hrs of 9-5 m-f for support (which is when most guys work on their race cars right?) We did not have enough cash to win the approved vendor contract as our racer prices did not afford a large enough profit margin). I did not loose MY job - but I did lay a guy off and took on a big part of his workload - he did a lot of our non performance machining and assembly. A couple years later after falling car counts they adopted the crate OPTION rules - but for me the damage had already been done. But there were two good things to come of it (for me at least - who cares about anyone else right?). First was a job offer from Morgan McClure Motorsports (a really nice guy named ernie pulled some strings for me having come to love the level of service he got from us in his own ventures) - which would have been the culmination of a life time goal to be employed full time by a top level team - which after long thought I turned down as my new marriage was more important to me in the grand scheme of things, but just the offer was enough for me to say I had reached my goal as GETTING there was the main goal anyway. The second was a decision (coupled with a recent back injury) to change careers. I was not interested in building low end stock replacement stuff - it was just what came with the opportunity to build the high end stuff! My new career has been much more lucrative - in 17 years I have ammassed enough wealth and income producing assets to retire today if I wanted (and still send the grandkids to college). Had I stayed "in the shop" I would still be just getting by - sacrificing as I had always done taking less pay for work I love more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 It's not that the crate motors get better mileage. You can run super unleaded pump gas in them rather than the $9.00 per gallon stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 So a 355 with hard seats, stailess 1 pc valves and 9.3:1 Hyper pistons that was priced 800 less than the GM crate with the same or better HP curve can't run pump gas? What is the limiting factor? After all in non crates comp ratio is the CHOICE made by the racer - can't credit the crate for that. we built with spec rules for Cal Super Truck (which was taken over by the NASCAR points sanctioning) long before the crate rules came out - and long before NASCAR even noticed that folks like trucks. And those spec engines would run on 89 octane with timing at 32 all in by 3000. 92 if you wanted to run 36 degrees timing - which only gave more off apex response. AND if you went too lean it would burn the head gasket before destroying the piston. Every crate I saw go too lean had piston\wall damage. The crate does not make as much economic sense to the racer as does the promoter (at least from my perspective). You can't go to the boneyard and buy a 355 crate, rebuild it it in your garage for 400 and have it claimed for a profit as many of my street stock customer did. One of the arguements they threw out in deciding to go crate was to reduce inspection costs thus lowering operating expense and passing more $$ into funds avail for purses. True the first year but then no more purse increases and in fact as car counts went down (some folks still wanted the ability to really RACE as opposed to IROC style cookie cutter race cars) so did total purses in the touring sanctions. And look where IROC is today - are they the premier race class? Oh thats right they are defunct due to lack of interest as the one size fits all approach demeans the racers ability to do their own engineering and reduces the quality of the show. Where would Bruce Crower's legacy be today if Crates (or for that matter "modifieds" cost reduction rules) were the norm in the 60's? When the body is the only thing allowed to be modified might as well restart the IROC series. Don't get me wrong - I fully understand the balancing act here. But as one who made my living on the race industry I more than the individuals themselves was quite affected by the rules - so have a bitter taste over the control of cost by rule issue. edited - oh and a guy can take a 30.00 shock paint it pink, win a race and tell everyone it's a top secret new item, sell other pink shocks for 200 (or have it outlawed as a "special high dollar secret part") - thats just the way racers think - or more precisely don't think and blame the parts for their "shortcomings". I have long priors for doing the very same so don't get all wadded up folks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Easy Bishop. I wasn't trying to get you worked up about crate motors. I just noticed your comment about fuel economy. It's not about fuel mileage - just about not having to buy race fuel. Most if not all of the 2bbl and open mod motors have to run race gas. I was not trying to make any comment about your spec motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Do you mean what five flags has now is what THR will have next year? CORY, GO TO FIVE FLAGS WEBSITE - DRIVERS THEN RULES MDIFIED, IT WAS ANNOUNCED 2 WEEKS AGO THAT OUR RULES WILL MIRROR THE GULF COAST MODIFIED RULES FOR 2012. THE UPDATES FOR 2012 ARE IN HIGHLIGHTED IN YELLOW. GREAT RULE PACKAGE AND MUCH EASIER TO POLICE FOR JACK. THESE RULES WILL BE FOR MOBILE, PENSICOLA, OPP, MONTGOMERY, HOUSTON & KYLE. THE ONLY QUESTION FOR NOW IS WHAT BREAKS WILL THE CRATE MOTORS GET IF ANY. Thats what I thought, just dont see them adopting these rules w/o giving the crates an advantage. But either way is no prob with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacecar Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I have a suggestion....we should stop keeping score and at the end of the night everyone gets a first place trophy Must be a Generation Y racer...... Everyone is a winner; there's no losers. Everybody on the baseball team gets a trophy, no matter if they played well, won, or lost. Life and work is not quite that way.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latemodeloutlaw Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Thank you pacecar. My point exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 So I guess this wouldn't fly? yet costs nothing more than time to do... This is not new. Larson did this on their modifieds in the late '90's and actually sold the kits to fab until 4-5 yrs ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 I have a suggestion....we should stop keeping score and at the end of the night everyone gets a first place trophy Must be a Generation Y racer...... Everyone is a winner; there's no losers. Everybody on the baseball team gets a trophy, no matter if they played well, won, or lost. Life and work is not quite that way.......... I know that was meant as a general insult but, as odd as it seems to even me, I think this is somewhat true in my case. I competed at high athletic levels for many years in a completely win/lose environment and have a large trophy room to show for it. Same for the business environment. win/lose. I started racing cars on ovals at the stage that my knees said "no more rugby". I race for fun, comradery and competition in that order. I have zero interest in investing the kind of money (in terms of both dollars and testing time) that it takes to run up front under current conditions . It's just not worth it to me. Hey, sue me. At this time, I just don't see today's mod racing "product" as a good use of my descretionary income . I am a customer in the so called experiencial economy and there are many "experience opportunities" competing for my fun dollar. A friend said something to me the other day that hit me like a lightening bolt. He said, "You are unable to make yourself enjoy racing anymore". I've known that, inside, for the last year or two but didn't want to admit it. Simply stated, the track has to compete for my dollars by providing me more fun "potential" than a trip to Tahiti would . Speaking only for myself, if I can't run in the middle and have fun for reasonable dollars(cost), then they can continue to stare at my empty pit space. I am in complete control of what the defination of "reasonable dollars" is. Not the track, not the fans, not other racers... Increased car count opportunities are in positions 11 thru 24, not in positions 1 thru 10. I am not in the track business and do not pretend to know their challenges. It is simply my opinion on where the real market research, in the future, should be conducted. There are few "new" cars being built. 99% of the cars are just being recycled. It would seem to make good sense for the sanction/track to know where every one of them in Texas are, their state of readiness, why they are parked, etc. Heck there aren't more than 30 or 40 total. I know that sounds socialistic but from the tracks point of view, racing is a business not a sport. Every racing sanction slows down the fast guys to get broader fields. If that offends you, then run track and field. The fastest person wins, no excuses or outside interference and you can be the champion of the world for as long as you physically can... it is a pure sport....but, it is not a business model that makes any real money. The NFL has changed to be more about parody instead of dynasty. That's bad for the "sport" of it but great for the "business" of it. Nascar banned the Hemi, right? As always just my opinion. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHigdon Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Seems the issues come back to the same two or three points. A good cheap idea is great until someone perfects it, patents it and starts selling it. The first racer that showed up with item x made in his garage didn't add anything to the cost of racing until he started winning because of it and then him or someone else started selling it. The car stays the same and the parts get more complicated. I have seen all sorts of sillyness heaped upon racing to "reduce cost". Sports mods have to run 500cfm 2 barrels to reduce cost and the product is guys running $800 2 barrels; most tracks outlaw low cost vortec heads (that outflow many low-cost aftermarket pieces) and guys either spend $2000 on iron performance heads or $1000 on a "stock" rebuild on ancient heads...etc.. All the cars look the same because eventually if you make enough rules the box is so small there isn't any room to move around. What if the opposite approach was tried (just for arguments sake)? What if twenty car models where thrown in a hat at the end of the season and the racers had to draw for a car to build for the next season. Familiarity breeds comfort which breeds boredom which breeds innovation. Thirty years ago when the hottest ticket was whatever was new off the showroom floor the high-end guys bought and built new cars each year or so. The product was instead of spending their dollars on high-end racing equipment they spent their dollars on the new cars to put cages in and race and the product was race cars that (gasp!!!!) looked like what was in peoples driveway. The cars changed every few years and the learning curve always kept the guys back a few steps so it was a matter of mastering the new car not building the old one to infinity. If “latemodel” racers where made to buy and build “latemodel” bodies in white (I’m thinking Camaros, Chargers and Mustangs) and run mildly modified stock engines in them while keeping the cars current to make the last few model years would they spend any more or less then now? Think about it. The idea works its way down…four cylinder guys running cobalts and focuses, mid-level guys running Impalas and Taurus’. How many years will the metric chassis/358/3-speed be in vogue? In twenty years are guys going to buy reproduction metric clips to run on IMCA modifieds? A racer will NEVER let his car sit; they are always trying to make it faster or better. If you run a product that’s had thirty years to ferment then you’re going to have guys spending large sums on parts for smaller gains…now if you run something without familiarity the margins gained vs. amounts spent goes down. Soaking tires, fuel additives, large amount of money for shocks/heads/carbs/chassis only makes sense if you HAVE to spend that money to stay ahead of a well established curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIPPYHIPPY Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 dg 33 mod that is the point. Give me 10 grand and I will get you the best shocks around. I will go to chris davidson and karl edelman or john heil. Then with the left over money I can buy at least 8000 dollars worth of lotto tickets. And if I win I'll donate half to charity and the other half I'll split with all on lone star speedzone.sounds like a good idea to me. You are right. 2000 bucks for some awesome shocks from the best set up guys around. Now throw them in the trash can because I cant run them any more along w/ all those springs i have for HMP & THR not to mention any other tracks I might have run. Start w/ the 2012 rules package which is going to cost some money but being the committed racer I am. I'm going to find the best ways to build this set up to go fast. Who do you think will build or master this new COST EFFECTIVE setup. You said it first looneedude chris davidson, karl edelman oh yea & that john heil who wont stop till hes fast along w/ the 30,33, 91etc. Lets not foget the 15 always looking to be fast. WOW what has changed More Money spent slower cars that are starting to resemble sport mods & truck class. Which are great classes very competitive and any car could run in the middle of the pack any night. Maybe those classes are more suiting for the fun factor dollar. The two classes some call them ELITE classes ( Pro Modifieds & Late Models ) should remain technical engineering master pieces of the local track. I am just saying the ones running up front are probably going to continue to run upfront as long as they feel inspired to run in the class no matter what the cost. Most changes to rules based on saving money or making the class more competitive usually have had quite the opposite effect. Some lose interest in the class or do not believe in the changes ,cost or other. Just my opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 This is not new. Larson did this on their modifieds in the late '90's and actually sold the kits to fab until 4-5 yrs ago. the first cantilevered I saw was in 1984 - Junior Johnson had it on a super stock on a trailer at riverside, was going to run it in test sessions after the race weekend. I was trying to figure it out when Junior himself saw me and took the time to explain the benefits (and some drawbacks) of the setup. The only time I ever really spoke to the man - but what an impression it made that he took the time to explain it to me. The setup in the pic is flawed - look closely at the angle the canti -push rod is at. The effective spring rate is way wrong! The lower will move a ton long before the spring is compressed due to flex of the push rod in addition to the angle actually softening the spring rate. But the point is this type of ingenuity is what racing should be about. If all the cars were towed to the track, their numbers put in a hat and the drivers draw which car they would run - that would close up the ranks of drivers and cars faster than any rule that makes them (cars) "equal". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Easy Bishop. I wasn't trying to get you worked up about crate motors. I was not trying to make any comment about your spec motor. Yea I know and I digress... I do tend to get worked up about the "equalizing" rules as racing is not just about go fast turn left - it's about driving and engineering to the limits and that engineering should never be stiffled any more than the driving should. There are two ways to go about it. Build it or buy it. I tend to have a ton more respect for the builders than the buyers. never met a racer who said "Man I keep getting beat by a better driver or builder" It's always "I can't compete with his wallet". Problem is I have worked with and for enough teams to know budget limits they had. And it was not always the high budget that set records, won races or had the nicest looking cars. And in my book thats fundamentally wrong to penalize the thinkers for the whining of the guys getting beat. Their usually getting beat for a reason that is not about the benjamins! And most times it's because they resist rather than embrace the thinking, efforts and new ideas that create winners! I remember when the BBSS setup was laughed at. I recall "ground effects? hogwash" comments. etc. etc ad naseum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Most changes to rules based on saving money or making the class more competitive usually have had quite the opposite effect. Some lose interest in the class or do not believe in the changes ,cost or other. Just my opinion of course. I think I remeber saying this when the Romco/USRA series decided to switch to crates to save the class. It was my opinion that if you choose to run the "elite" series and complain that you cant afford to run it competitively, either quit complaining or dont run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneedude Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 zippyhippy I agree 100% and btw I love that screen name. I've been wanting to change lssz name but don't know if it possible with out creating a new account. And I'm sorry for leaving the 15 off the wd cars are always fast. And let us also not forget the 007. Just think this thread wouldn't even exist if heil was such a big fat cheater. just kiddin john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 "Elite".... phffft Lot's of elbow room down on the elite starting grid these days. Had some offsite email traffic about track bashing this morning. They were already reacting to the lack of competitiveness prior to this little penny ante discussion. HMP/THR are considering changes because they cannot make a living selling today's product. This isn't just an HMP/THR/Texas thing. Look around. Where did those proposed rules come from and why are those tracks altering the competive balance of their "bird in the hand"? Tell me which of the following is an outright lie. There are 8 to 10 car mod fields. The racing has not been competitive. When was the last mod race that made it thru the first lap without a yellow? Hasn't the new norm been that a 10 car field can't run 35 laps inside of 45 minutes? 35 laps at 16 seconds per lap is 9 minutes and 20 seconds....the rest of the 45 minutes is the fans watching nothing. Not good. Not elite. Just my opinion jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 bishop, You're right about the geometry. It never really worked all that well for Larson either. They finally advertised it as protection for the shocks - not in the A arms when they get knocked off. Jay, HERE< HERE! It's not just the Mods, look at TSRS and Pro Lates and the Legacys have been a joke the last few races (although those cautions have been mostly solo spins). I think that's why fans used to applaude the super stocks and trucks and maybe why the car counts are decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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