jracer98 Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Not really interested in whether this is "legal or illegal". Can anyone describe how this coilover eliminator was incorporated into the front suspension? I have a hard enough time packaging enough shock clearance in some applications. There is some trading between getting the spring K out by the rim and losing some K in the resulting angle relative to the oem upright spring. Is this a coilover eliminator with a separate shock or a coilover shock with a 5" spring kit? anyway I appreciate original thinking jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneedude Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I wouldn't think they would be very interested in giving that info away for free......had I been the tech person I would have said "you got me...dont bring it back like that, because there will be a rule change this week" guess that's why there is a disclaimer at the end of the rules that says if it don't say you can than you can't or some thing to that effect. Just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I not really asking for anything that a casual observer couldn't see. This setup appears in photos on the net from the 4 /23 race. I do find it odd that it's illegal at 11:00 p.m. last Saturday night instead of then... jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIPPYHIPPY Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Very good point ! [edited out by Nick Holt, 5/10/2011] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 let's not get carried away now... I am just commenting on their engineering and fabrication skills but with that said, shouldn't the guy that finished 2nd in the 4/23 mod race be thinking "hmmmm...." Just my opinion jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 As usual, there are at least six different versions of any TI and/or DQ and the resulting penalties. Blaming the tech department is not an option on Lone Star Speedzone, so please keep this in mind as Jay's original question is discussed in a calm, non-blaming way. Thanks. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I'm certainly not the tech man and I wasn't present Sat night, but since you asked the questions, I'll throw an opinion or two in the mix. As far as this car being singled out, I've always felt like the tech man should be able to take action on any item he sees in plain view even if he was checking something else that night. Anything in plain view should be fair game even in the absence of a protest provided that the part in view is illegal or questionable on first glance. You can see the front springs on a modified from 10 feet away, so to say this car was singled out sure seems like a stretch. Now as far as whether or not coilover eliminators jive with the current rules, I don't want to touch that one at this point. It's definitely a matter of interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Again.... This discussion needs to stay centered on the coil over eliminators, not on the tech department. If anyone has an issue with any particular call made (or not made) by track officials, they should take that issue up with the track. However, Jay asked a good question about the use of coil over eliminators in the Modified class, not whether the tech department made a good or bad call. Thanks again for your cooperation as this discussion continues. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I dont drive a Mod...I dont own a Mod...But...they are MODIFIEDS!!!! In my opinion (I know...) there are way to many rules with these cars. Make them safe and let them MODIFY them any way they want. These are fire breathing bad a$$ race cars. Look back just 10 years ago. Todays Mods are nothing like those cars. Leave it to man kind to screw it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truckracer59 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Well said PaPa. MODIFIEDS rule!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIPPYHIPPY Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 The rules mention Stock configuration.....hmmm Is'nt a coil over elimnator the same configuration as the old struts found on many early automobile front suspensions. Just because one uses a stock configuration for the first time that no one else uses maybe this should be looked at yes and discussed. I have nothing but the upmost respect for all tech officials they have the hardest job in racing by far. i am just wanting some other feed back on this rule and how others might interpret it. What do other racers think ? Modifieds do Rule for testing engineering envelope on local tracks !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kruger71 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 For what it's worth..... Not only has this setup been on the car since 4/23 it has been there for all but 3 races this year including being seen by Ricky Brooks at Houston. Kinda funny how it didn"t get noticed when it is really hard to hide the front suspension on a MODIFIED after being through tech numerous times every weekend. It definately is not something that we felt was illegal per the rule book or we would not have done it. We welcomed everyone to look at it and ask about it. Howwever changes are already taking place and we will return to Thunderhill on May 21st and be fast as usual looking for 3 in a row!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Has anyone looked at the grand marquis chassis, up front they have a strut similiar to a coilover now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertx Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 I think it's a great idea what the 30 car did.Why punish some one for thinking and being smarter.As many knows I have supported THR since day one, my best friends own it and have many good friends that race there.All of these silly rules are killing asphalt racing let them race ,this class is called modifieds JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 I think it's a great idea what the 30 car did.Why punish some one for thinking and being smarter.As many knows I have supported THR since day one, my best friends own it and have many good friends that race there.All of these silly rules are killing asphalt racing let them race ,this class is called modifieds JMO Gotta disagree with you on this one - and I consider the THR owners my friends too. What's killing the class is the ungodly amount of money it takes to even come close to competing with the high-dollar teams. I'm not talking a couple of hundred bucks here either... If it were up to me, (fat chance of that ever happening) this is what I would do for all three of the top classes, Trucks, Mods and Lates. 1) Teams would be required to purchase their track-mandated, serialized, $85 shocks from the track. Shocks would be removed from the top five and dynoed after every race. That would take care $10K shock packages right quick. 2) All tires that run in competition would be under 100% impound. Teams would be able to practice on non-impounded tires, but they would have to run the impounded tires during any competition. All tires would be serialized and tracked via a computer database. A) Tires would have to be purchased from the track tire dealer. After purchase the tires would go directly to the impound trailer - either mounted or unmounted - for storage until the team is ready to compete. C) After competition the top five stop on the front straight for a durometer check. D) As the cars leave the track they go directly to the impound trailer where their wheels are removed and impounded. E) Teams would only be allowed to purchase one new tire per competition event. That would take care of the tire soaking problem and tire expense problem, but would add a manpower burden to the track. 3) Fuel would be sampled from the top five after every race. 4) Engine, carb and drive train tear-downs would be common, not rare. If just these four items were implemented in a serious way, that would take care of 99% of the B.S and 75% of the operating expenses in those three classes. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstevens Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 The coil-over eliminator I assume replaces the shock itself. The rules for modifieds state 17. Steering / Suspension • Front suspension and steering must be stock type configuration (vague What are the advantages of a coil-over eliminator? I havent found a good explanation of why this is a better configuration or why a custom built shock wouldnt do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 The coil-over eliminator I assume replaces the shock itself. The rules for modifieds state 17. Steering / Suspension • Front suspension and steering must be stock type configuration (vague What are the advantages of a coil-over eliminator? I havent found a good explanation of why this is a better configuration or why a custom built shock wouldnt do better. It doesn't exactly replace the shock - it allows the shock to be relocated outside the coilover assembly and allows the use of 5" (as an example) springs in the coilover location. It basically uses a slider assembly inside the spring to locate the spring. One benefit might be locating the spring closer to the ball joint - changes the motion ratio and wheel rate at that corner. Might also allow for more useable spring travel allowing the use of softer springs on a bumpstop setup without having to worry about coil bind. No idea if any of this applies to why the 30 car was trying this setup, just talking in general terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstevens Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 That makes more sense, I was sensing from reading about it that there was no shock at all but it is just moved to another area. The moving closer to the ball joint totally makes sense as it maximizes the A-arm setup. Thanks Chase! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Ive looked at the 30 car before, dont remember seeing a "coil-over eliminator" on it. I have seen the piece in question and seems like John Heil was inventive. If its illegal than ok, but I didnt see the description for that in the rule book. Now as for the class getting out of hand with ungodly amounts of money being poured into it, get used to it. Once track owners and promoters decided to take it upon themselves to "cut costs" for the racers, well its gotten out of hand. 15 thousand dollar "crate" motors, 900 dollar "non-adjustable" shocks, tire work, hidden rear end lockers, hidden traction control...etc...etc. Its not just mods or THR or HMP, its every short track across america in all classes. The super lates have a problem with catching traction control, pro lates, the crate motors, on and on. If you want to have an elite series, let them be elite. If they want to spend a million bucks on a car, let em. Thats what killed the SLM class around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzgqh6 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 NEW RULES (GULF COAST MODIFIED RULES) WILL TAKE CARE OF SOME OF THIS NEXT YEAR. READ THE RULES FOR NEXT YEAR AR 5 FLAGS WEBSITE AND START PLANNING FOR NEXT YEAR BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE WILL HAVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Do you mean what five flags has now is what THR will have next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Do you mean what five flags has now is what THR will have next year? That's what he means. THR and HMP. I think they brought this push up at a recent driver's meeting at HMP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 ..........What's killing the class is the ungodly amount of money it takes to even come close to competing with the high-dollar teams. I'm not talking a couple of hundred bucks here either... 1) Teams would be required to purchase their track-mandated, serialized, $85 shocks from the track. Shocks would be removed from the top five and dynoed after every race. That would take care $10K shock packages right quick. ............... D) As the cars leave the track they go directly to the impound trailer where their wheels are removed and impounded. 4) Engine, carb and drive train tear-downs would be common, not rare. Nick Nick, I have a couple of exceptions to your suggestions, but I agree the cost is what's killing these classes: 1) Teams need to be able to purchase shock packages compatible with their suspension setups. Set a dollar amount and require the racer to purchase from the track. They need to be rebuildable to cut costs and $85 / shock probably won't cut it, but $150 should. No 3rd party valveing - factory only at no additional charge. You can dyno and compare with the factory dyno sheet to see if the shock has been changed. D) How are you going to tech for ride height if the car can't go to tech with the race tires? 4) Tear downs are too expensive. Just get a borescope and do frequent inspections with it. If you see something suspicious, then teardown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usra43 Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 ... What's killing the class is the ungodly amount of money it takes to even come close to competing with the high-dollar teams. I'm not talking a couple of hundred bucks here either... I'm with you on this one Nick. Thats what what i been thinking the past 4 years. The shock rule is so out of the ball park it's unreal. Having $10,000 shock packages on a 3/8 mile track on Limited late models. Watching the race isn't fun either when you know who will when every weekend cause those teams have the money when others don't, and thus giving horrible car count=empty seats in the stands. I have "heard" of guys having over $20,000 in a late model motor. How the heck does that happen with the rules? Motors and trans need to be torn apart more often, not once a year. I wouldn't blame anyone thats cheats in a late model or modified class that doesn't have high dollar shocks! LOL. Hell, i would do it. Whats the loss? Either way you loose but you had fun up front. Would you want to see 2 or 3 fast cars racing or 16 cars racing that are 1/2 sec. slower? The 16 cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Nick, I have a couple of exceptions to your suggestions, but I agree the cost is what's killing these classes: 1) Teams need to be able to purchase shock packages compatible with their suspension setups. Set a dollar amount and require the racer to purchase from the track. They need to be rebuildable to cut costs and $85 / shock probably won't cut it, but $150 should. No 3rd party valveing - factory only at no additional charge. You can dyno and compare with the factory dyno sheet to see if the shock has been changed. D) How are you going to tech for ride height if the car can't go to tech with the race tires? 4) Tear downs are too expensive. Just get a borescope and do frequent inspections with it. If you see something suspicious, then teardown. OK... I'm game for $150 rebuildable shocks that must conform to the factory specs that the track has mandated. The secret, of course, is to dyno the shocks every week. However, last time I checked, the non-rebuildable $85 shocks would work just fine. Check for ride height before the cars ever get on the track while on pit road. I did that at SAS and it worked just fine. OF course, I had to bounce a few of the cars so that the "temporary spacers" would either break or fall out before I put the roller under the cars. Had some unhappy campers because if they didn't pass they were DQ's on the spot and went straight to the pits without ever taking the green. After the first few weeks we rarely ever had a low car... Many of our very clever engine builders have outwitted almost every external engine check known to man. About the only way to be sure what your looking at in an engine is to tear them down and measure/weigh/inspect stuff. And I don't go for those seals on crate or Legacy engines either. Just the other day I noted that the price for fake seals has gone way down. I guess the first guy who started selling them finally got some competition and the price war was on! And I do agree with your last statement. Don't tear down just for fun. There should be a good reason to tear someone down on any given night. And that reason does not have to be know by anyone except the tech team. But, of course, this will never happen because my reputation as being rather strict when dealing with rules is pretty well known. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.