THR Classes

[usra43]

Is the Sport mods or pro sedans racing next year at THR?

[HiTech]

Is the Sport mods or pro sedans racing next year at THR?

as it is now ..no tps ...

[Cleaner]

Why? The car counts were pretty big the whole season.

[direct-flo]

It is my understanding that of the 3 series affected, the members of the Pro Sedans agreed not to race at THR without purse participation as in years past.

[HiTech]

It is my understanding that of the 3 series affected, the members of the Pro Sedans agreed not to race at THR without purse participation as in years past.

you are correct ..with what i know ....they have put in some request with cc speedway for a few races next year ..dont know what will become of that .......its a shame.....alot of history with that searies ..had alot of fun ....some very fine racers .some of the best out there .always fun to hang around with and race against....problem will be alot of good cars sitting out if they dont come up with some deals ..oh heck no more lalo.s bbq...that should be against the law right there ....lucky i live just down the road from his shop ..and on any given day he has that pit going ....

[NickHolt]

Let's not bury the TPS series prematurely. There is still plenty of time before the start of the 2011 season to work out a TPS race schedule.

 

It's a fact, however, that stock car racing in Texas has had gone through some tough times lately and sometimes we all have to make adjustments in how we conduct business if asphalt tracks are to survive in Texas. To the best of my knowledge, THR offered The Dwarf Cars, the NasKarts and the Texas Pro Sedans the same "no purse" deal for the 2011 season. And, apparently, the Dwarf Cars and NasKarts have accepted the new arrangement and will be running at THR in 2011, but so far, anyway, TPS has not agreed to the new terms.

 

Hopefully TPS will be able to generate a purse through sponsors and donors and will be running at THR in 2011.

 

Nick

[HiTech]

Let's not bury the TPS series prematurely. There is still plenty of time before the start of the 2011 season to work out a TPS race schedule.

 

It's a fact, however, that stock car racing in Texas has had gone through some tough times lately and sometimes we all have to make adjustments in how we conduct business if asphalt tracks are to survive in Texas. To the best of my knowledge, THR offered The Dwarf Cars, the NasKarts and the Texas Pro Sedans the same "no purse" deal for the 2011 season. And, apparently, the Dwarf Cars and NasKarts have accepted the new arrangement and will be running at THR in 2011, but so far, anyway, TPS has not agreed to the new terms.

 

Hopefully TPS will be able to generate a purse through sponsors and donors and will be running at THR in 2011.

 

Nick

have not burried tps yet ..but with out a sponsor.and donors ...dont see them racen at thunderhill ..i hope they do get the backing ..ill take back the looks like its over ..nick if i can gather winning numbers for the lotto.s and win ...ill back em ..so send a good number ......

[RobbinsSr]

Nick you are correct about the Dwarf cars. We have voted to still race at THR, However we (DCRST) are seeking race and series sponsors for the class. ANY BODY???????????????

[racevw112]

Is it getting that bad, where classes are going to start running for no purse? Is that I how I read this?

 

Come on now, talking about robbery by mutual consent..... Heck I would love to be a promoter and have a class come and race for nothing..... Win Win for the promoter.

 

I take it, they get in free since they will be running for no purse.

[NickHolt]

Is it getting that bad, where classes are going to start running for no purse? Is that I how I read this?

 

Come on now, talking about robbery by mutual consent..... Heck I would love to be a promoter and have a class come and race for nothing..... Win Win for the promoter.

 

I take it, they get in free since they will be running for no purse.

Robbery? Pretty strong word there, sir.

 

Win/win for the promoter? Short tracks all around the country are closing and it's not because promoters are in a win/win situation.

 

Track owners and promoters, along with various touring series, are having to re-define their business models. One of the trends is that touring series are bringing their own sponsors rather than depending on the tracks to cover all their expenses. What good is a flourishing touring series if there are no tracks to run at?

 

Yes, generating sponsorship money is a tough assignment these days, but it is just as hard for the tracks as it is for the touring series and individual race teams.

 

I believe that the three series that were impacted in this instance - the Dwarfs, the NasKarts and the Texas Pro Sedans - are still welcome to run at THR and I understand that both the NasKarts and the Dwarfs have opted to seek their own sponsorship-generated purses and that they will be running there in 2011. As I understand it, the members of the TPS voted unanimously to not run at THR in 2011 unless the track provided a purse.

 

Nick

[racevw112]

I just don't agree with a class of cars having to find their on purse. If that has to happen, then why have a racing season? Just form a club/association and rent the facility when you want to race.

 

 

The following is a couple of quotes I took from the Hoseheads.com Forum

 

IMO, the beginning of the end came when track owners stopped promoting and would just open the gates, hoping that the fans would show up. You take that and couple it with the fact that the "gas station garage" could no longer hand build their own cars or build a competitive engine and that pretty much did it in. You now have to buy the high priced "store bought" cars to run up front, and the number of people who can do that these days grows smaller each year.

 

 

The promoters are not promoters, they are track operators.

 

 

For as the TPS goes, they could move their series to dirt? There are more dirt tracks then asphalt tracks in Texas.

 

Like someone told me, racing is dying a long slow death.

 

Lyle

[NickHolt]

I just don't agree with a class of cars having to find their on purse. If that has to happen, then why have a racing season? Just form a club/association and rent the facility when you want to race.

 

The Dwarfs, NasKarts and TPS already have their own governing bodies and contract to race at various racing venues. All three still have the option to run at THR if their governing bodies wish to do so.

 

As far as I know, the track is still paying purses to their own racing classes.

 

Nick

[BobbyChaffee]

The mini stock class ran for no purse for a majority of the 2010 season. The new purse is still relatively small and pays only the top 3 finishers. $30 for 1st, $20 for 2nd, $10 for 3rd. Even with the low purse it has been and continues to be the fastest growing classes at the track. Say what you want about the mini's being cheaper to build and operate but they are still race cars. If I could afford to run another class that pays more purse I would, but I can't so I'll stick with what I've got.

[dano36]

Several years ago I worked at Mercer Raceway Park (PA) (late 70s) and they ran a weekly show every Saturday. They ran 4 local classes to which they paid a purse and a fifth class, very similiar to the TPS class as we know it would bring up the rear of the program every Saturday night. They paid their own purse from club funds and they had a huge turnout of cars ever week. Aned they brought many fans in the form of their familys to the track. The entry fees paid by the competitors was paid to the club itself and all the promoter furnished was the track, the lights and officials. They also paid their own insurance as I understood it. Now the competitors paid nothing to the facility but their familys did pay to get into the grandstands plus they spent money on concessions so it was a win win situation for both and not just the promotor.

[racevw112]

I'm not knocking the mini's, so please don't take it that way. I have been pro mini for years, like 30 plus years. Guess I'm just sad to see how racing is slowly fading away from days gone by.

 

 

Mini Hi 5, maybe you can come and race with us at the Falll Classic in Waco this year, not the twister class but the mini class. Last several years it paid 1000.00 to win and 80.00 to start the A based on 24 cars, less then 24 cars it paid 600.00 to win and 80 to start.

 

We have been the only VW Rabbit there the last several years, my buddie GB Carter used to come up with his VW Rabbit.

 

Lyle

[1-Crew]

The issue, as I understand it, isn't just whether a class provides their own purse or not. The issue is the back gate.. THR collects from each person through the back gate a pit pass fee. In years past, THR used a portion of these fees to augment the purse provided to Pro Sedan drivers. The proposal for this year is that THR keep all of the back gate proceeds and provide nothing back to the TPS purse.

 

I know there are teams that routinely have 4-5 "crew" members in the pits every race. Conservatively, the back gate gross from TPS was ~$1100 per race. That figure does not include any front gate revenue from fans or family that did not want to pay the higher back gate fee.

 

Granted, there are many financial challenges to promoters these days. Insurance, staff, utilities and facility rent among others.. It seems though that there is only a net loss to the track by not hosting a successful touring series. They are losing the percentage of the back gate they normally receive from each race and they are losing the front gate from family and fans that only come out for that particular touring series.

 

It seems to be a lose/lose situation all the way around and really does not make much sense.

[NickHolt]

It won't be a "lose/lose" situation if the track can't pay its bills and locks the gates. It will be a "we all lose" situation. In case you haven't noticed, we are running out of Texas asphalt tracks.

 

I spent the first 20 years of my racing involvement on the competition side of pit wall, so I know that it takes money to field a race car and I know that without purse money it makes it hard to pay the bills. Nobody's saying otherwise.

 

But for a good portion of the past 20 years I have been on the other side of the pit wall much of the time and have been directly involved with several different touring series and held responsible positions at two different race tracks under four different promoters. I know that it takes money to run a series, but I also know that it cost a whole heck of a lot more to run a race track.

 

We can sit here and debate whether the chicken or the egg came first, but the bottom line is that if the tracks can't pay their bills they close. In that regard, we have been very fortunate in Texas because both the Naumanns and the Bakers have been willing to absorb losses in the past because of their love of the sport. But most folks don't realize just how close both THR and HMP have come to closing in the not-so-distant past, but I do.

 

I am painfully aware that some folks are bitter about THR's decision to quit paying purses to the NasKart series, the Dwarf series and the Texas Pro Sedans, but please keep in mind that LSS does not encourage bashing as you post regarding this subject. Thanks.

 

Nick

[1-Crew]

I hear what you are saying Nick but it seems that some assumptions are being made. I don't think of this as a "chicken or egg" type argument anyway. It is a "what can we do together to keep asphalt racing alive" argument.

 

On the track side, it appears that the assumption is the extra cost of supporting the series will not be offset by the revenue that class brings in unless they can keep the entire back gate proceeds. Without data, I have no way of estimating what this actual cost of adding a touring series race to the program is, I am sure it is there. I'll assume that at least some of the support staff is paid hourly and a touring series adds some time to the night. The rest of the cost is overhead that is spread across all classes competing that night so you could argue that there is a cost associated with the touring series but it is just a reduction to what would normally be applied to the remaining classes if the touring series was not there. In the case of the Pro Sedans, the class provides their own officials and have purchased the transponders required by THR to replace a manual scoring official.

 

In better times I assume the relationship was slightly different. The track would pay a fixed amount toward the purse with the assumption that the combination of back gate and front gate would cover operating expenses and the purse. The purse was large enough to attract good attendance through the back gate which in turn would bring more fans through the front gate.

 

For anyone that has been involved in asphalt racing for any length of time it is easy to see that for most nights, the stands are not nearly as full as we remember. In consideration of this, the relationship between the track and the touring series has changed.

 

For the series, at least in the case of the Pro Sedans, the more recent purse has been a combination of series sponsors and the percentage of the pit passes that was agreed to in the contract. In that sense both sides have a fiduciary interest in how the series is managed and presented to the fans. The Pro Sedans benefit by having a place to race and continued support of their series sponsors. The track benefits by having a well run show for their fans and sponsors.

 

The reality is the purse by itself is a largely symbolic gesture. Even for the most successful teams, the earnings from their racing don't even come close to offsetting the expense. That said, the presence (or absence) of a purse is what makes the series the PRO(ffessional) sedans.

 

My view is limited to what has been presented by Neil in his letter to the members of the Pro Sedans. No one knows if the outcome so far is what was expected or intended by either side. Some might see this as a big figure 8 race where each side is waiting to see who lifts first. In my opinion, it appears the wreck is inevitable and both sides will lose....

[tps48]

Common sense would say that if not paying a purse is a valid and viable business model then why would purses be paid in any class. If it works for dwarfs, TPS, and nascarts then who is next? Trucks? TSRS? Why pay anybody to race if the track is in such dire straits? The fact that this business model is only selectively applied has me scratching my head. I don't follow the logic.

[Mel]

I don't have a dog in this discussion but I do have some friends this directly affects. I'm trying to understand the logic.

 

Last year,

These classes raced and were paid a percentage of the amount they paid in at the back gate. I don't know the actual percentages but I'll guess around 75%. This means the track makes 25% when these classes are racing. Plus what ever they make at the concessions or the souvenir stand. I don't see any additional costs to the track to host these series.

 

This year,

Carts have a sponsor, so the track will receive 100% at back gate and the sponsor pay the carts their purse, the cart teams come out the same as last year.

The Dwarfs are going to run with no sponsor and the track will keep 100% of their purse. Dwarf teams lose their entire purse. Depends on how many actually show up to see if this works.

The Texas Pro Sedans members all voted not to run at THR, so the track loses all the back gate profits from them.

 

Last year the track made money on all three classes guaranteed every time they ran.

This year they'll make money on the Carts, they'll lose money on the Pro Sedans, and the Dwarfs, depending on how many show up, they could make money or lose money.

 

It will be interesting to see if this move helps or hurts the track.

 

Mel

[thumper]

I hear this argument all the time at EVERY track.It costs too much to operate,cant pay the performers enough to create a bountyful show,we all must suffer.It reminds me of the Jimmy Carter days and his " misery index " The car builders are frustrated with a lottle or no return on their investment and the drivers are frustrated by when they do give an excepitional performance theres almost nobody in the stands to appreciate it.Looks like the slow death Lyle is talking about and he knows as well as I do how this plays out from personal experience.

 

To me the solution is so simple.If the show dont sell,FIX IT. Basically nothing has changed in the Sat nite race floormat in many years. ITS BOARING FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON> Notice I didnt say race fan. FIX THE SHOW. Add live music,games more fan involvement and get rid of the vanity most drivers live in.Look at outdoor entertainment venues that are successful for ideas.The door is wide open for promoters with NEW ideas.The actual race should be no more than 50% of the total nites experience.Learn what your customers want and provide it.

 

One example.Put some money,real money in an entry level class of cars.Make them safe and durable.THEN give them a character idenity.Good guys,bad guys,every car has a story,then create a race that will allow them to battle each other.Tag teams,groops,relays .Maybe like rollerball.Each car is the star,forget the driver fame.Then new audicence can have a show to watck.A mobile bandstand with live bands can be used before the races,during halftime and especially after the races are over for those who want to party and dance.

 

Hire some stunt drivers and give a thrill show to some degree.Roll a few cars over.I remember way back one track had special cars that would roll over but always land on theoir wheels.Rounded external rollbars.

 

What Im trying to say is use the most fantastic invention ever created,the automobile to become a diversity of performers.Make the cars the stars.Be creative.Make it exciting and people will come.Make it profitable and the performers will show up.Make it cheap enough and families will come.A true outdoor entertainment arena.Think outside the box.If Vence McMahan ran a track it would always be sold out.And he sells fake aggresion.You can do so much more with cars.

 

As far as I can tell Thunderhill is giving it a real chance and is openminded enough to gamble a little.Dont stop now.You have the population,place and weather so keep up the Reagen optimismBuild that show,not egos.The customers are the real heros,give them a hell of a show.

 

Just the rambelings of an old man.Racing needs entertainment promoters more than anything else.

[HiTech]

...Just the rambelings of an old man.Racing needs entertainment promoters more than anything else.

hey mister rambler ..you wont race for free ...i have alot of respect for thunderhill owners ..but if a track wont pay a purse of some typ .to help offset some of the racers exspence..then those drivers have to either race where there is some typ of purse .or park em ...makes you wonder what would happen if no class had a purse .......gb i agree with tracks need to do more with down time ....car shows music .what ever ...atleast that will and could offset the lost of paying a purse ....now thunder hill has now a show going to be produced there ..i dont know what the track will be paid ..but this more looks like they needed to cut some classes ...i know one thing ill miss going to kyle ...i will surly miss the sausage wraps .....to far to drive from here just to watch other classes ..with out tps we wont be making it up to thunder hill .all 5 to 6 of us ......i wish thunder hill all the best . man was that track fun to race on .....

[dano36]

Mike. We will miss you. Signed: The sausage industry.

[HiTech]

Mike. We will miss you. Signed: The sausage industry.

all heck ..may have to make a run there ..just to see you and budman .and maybe slap old tom around alittle ...

[dano36]

We will hold you to that MIke. Would be great to see you and Josh up there. And maybe someday I will have to make that trip to Corpus. Will Josh be running there? Will definitely miss the Corpus folks that came up to THR.