"Exactly"...what is the law?

[jwmbishop]

note 4500 lb

 

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/vi/inspection...;classsubmit=Go

Correct - if the TRAILER has a gvwr of 4500 or more IT MUST HAVE BRAKES and is inspected on the items listed in the link.

[jracer98]

as regards the "inspection" deal...just looked it up...my 28ft Pace tag's gross weight is 3900.

 

 

note 4500 lb

 

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/vi/inspection...;classsubmit=Go

Correct - if the TRAILER has a gvwr of 4500 or more IT MUST HAVE BRAKES and is inspected on the items listed in the link.

[jwmbishop]

But when loaded - I like brakes on the back even when NOT required.

3900 don't leave you much room for a race car assuming the trailor itself weighs at least 900!!

[Truck99]

just looked it up...my 28ft Pace tag is 3900 lb.

 

 

note 4500 lb

 

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/vi/inspection...;classsubmit=Go

Correct - if the TRAILER has a gvwr of 4500 or more IT MUST HAVE BRAKES and is inspected on the items listed in the link.

 

Jay, don't confuse the empty weight with the gvwr. GVWR on your trailer is probably closer to 10,000.

[jracer98]

as regards the "inspection" deal...it does not say gvwr...it says actual gross weight (?)

[Truck99]

Look at the rating tag on the door or post of the tow vehicle. It has TWO ratings. GVWR (gross veh weight rating) and CGVWR (Combined Gross Veh Weight Rating - also stated as GCWR, Gross Combined Weight Rating).

 

IF the CGVWR rating is 26,001 or over AND Towing a trailor - then you MUST have an A if the trailor is over 10,000 or B if it's under to operate the rig.

 

Examples:

F350 Lng Bed Crew Cab 6.7L Powerstroke, Auto trans, 3:73 gear Dually - CGVWR = 29,000 lbs, GVWR = 20,300

Trailor GVWR = 10,000 or less, Class B, Trailor GVWR 10,001 lbs or more - class A

 

F350 Lng Bed Crew Cab 6.7L Powerstroke, Auto trans, 3:73 gear SINGLE- CGVWR = 23,500 lbs, GVWR = 14,000 lbs

Trailor GVWR 9999 or under - Class C, Trailor gvwr 10,000 or above Class C - but exceeds weight and will get a commercial ticket.

 

So basically if its a dually (at least in Ford's line) and you are towing you need either an A or B depending on weight rating of trailer! (drawback to Ford being the highest rating for towing - you could probably tow with a Dodge and be under as long as you don't exceed the rate with actual weight). So check that sticker and do the math!

 

Ford Truck Specs

 

Not exactly accurate, at least when looking at my Ford truck. The two ratings on the truck are GVWR (maximum fully loaded weight) and the empty weight or actual weight. The combined GVWR you talk about comes into play when you add the GVWR of the tow vehicle and trailer.

 

Example, the GVWR of a 2011 Chevy 3500 dually pickup is somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,400. If you're pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 10,000, you would be well under the 26,001 mentioned in this post.

 

A more concrete example as it comes directly from our equipment: Dodge 2500 tow vehicle with Cummins diesel - 9000 GVWR. Pace 28' trailer GVWR 10,000. Combined GVWR is 19,000.

[jwmbishop]

it does not say gvwr...it says actual gross weight (?)

Pace web site as I don't know which model - they show curb and Gross separate for each model - click the model then click specs.

[Truck99]

as regards the "inspection" deal...it does not say gvwr...it says actual gross weight (?)

 

 

It says "Actual Gross Weight." Hmmm......

[jwmbishop]

Not exactly accurate

 

Actually VERY accurate - right from the rates from Ford! Not arguing with ya so this is all I'll say.

 

Click the link at the bottom of my post. First column Combined Gross Weight Rating. Combined is a rating that comes from the Manufacture - not by you combining individual GVWRs! Thats the majic number my friend!

 

When Buying our 11,000 gvwr fifth wheel and looking for a Veh to pull it with I took charts from all the manufacturers to the DPS and had them explain it one by one in a what if... I settled for the 09 F250 Kings Ranch Short Club SRW (single rear wheel) with 4:30 gears as it's CVWR is 24,600 while GVWR is 13,200 (the KR short box option added 700 to the 12,500 in example I stated for Long Box - got a slider hitch to correct radius issues when towing a 5th with a shorty). So my gvwr's add up to 23,200 while my rated CVWR is under the majic 26,001 - I only need a C (and verified with every state so it won't ruin an otherwise good vacation)

[jwmbishop]

as regards the "inspection" deal...it does not say gvwr...it says actual gross weight (?)

 

 

It says "Actual Gross Weight." Hmmm......

 

Oh - on the inspection deal - yes - you can have a 7000 GVWR trailor and tow it without operational brakes as long as it's empty and the curb weight is below 4500. But once you load it the brakes better be functional!

[Truck99]

Not exactly accurate

 

Actually VERY accurate - right from the rates from Ford! Not arguing with ya so this is all I'll say.

 

Click the link at the bottom of my post. First column Combined Gross Weight Rating. Combined is a rating that comes from the Manufacture - not by you combining individual GVWRs! Thats the majic number my friend!

 

When Buying our 11,000 gvwr fifth wheel and looking for a Veh to pull it with I took charts from all the manufacturers to the DPS and had them explain it one by one in a what if... I settled for the 09 F250 Kings Ranch Short Club SRW (single rear wheel) with 4:30 gears as it's CVWR is 24,600 while GVWR is 13,200 (the KR short box option added 700 to the 12,500 in example I stated for Long Box - got a slider hitch to correct radius issues when towing a 5th with a shorty). So my gvwr's add up to 23,200 while my rated CVWR is under the majic 26,001 - I only need a C (and verified with every state so it won't ruin an otherwise good vacation)

 

The rating you're using appears to include the GVWR of the truck plus the maximum towing capacity. By using that number and adding the trailer in again, which is what your first example appeared to do, you are adding the trailer twice. That is not the way the law works in this case.

 

The law considers only the GVWR of the tow vehicle and the GVWR of the towed vehicle, as in the examples I gave.

 

By the way, I did look at your link - it makes it more clear that the ratings you're considering include the maximum loaded trailer towing capacity. That is not stamped on the door of the vehicle nor is it included on the registration information received by Police Officers when they check the registration of the tow vehicle.

[jwmbishop]

No I am NOT.

 

The manufacturers CGWR is JUST that - two or more vehs combined CAN NOT exceed it. REGARDLESS of their respective and individual GVWRs! That number is what the law is based on. period. if the manufacturers CGWR is over 26,001 you need at least a B - an A if the trailers indivudual GVWR is over 10,000.

 

The diff between empty weight and GVWR (payload capacity) is simply how much of the trailors weight can be loaded to the trucks axles! (hence two or even three axles on the trailer to reduce how much of it's GVWR is carried by the truck)

[Truck99]

No I am NOT.

 

The manufacturers CGWR is JUST that - two or more vehs combined CAN NOT exceed it. REGARDLESS of their respective and individual GVWRs! That number is what the law is based on. period. if the manufacturers CGWR is over 26,001 you need at least a B - an A if the trailers indivudual GVWR is over 10,000.

 

The diff between empty weight and GVWR (payload capacity) is simply how much of the trailors weight can be loaded to the trucks axles! (hence two or even three axles on the trailer to reduce how much of it's GVWR is carried by the truck)

 

Mr. Bishop, I no longer have the time or inclination to try and explain it to you. I am leaving to head out of town and away from my computer. Hopefully people will not be too confused as you seem to be after they have read your incorrect analysis of the law.

 

By the way, if we decide to believe your analysis, a F350 by itself equipped to haul a fifth wheel cannot be operated by itself unless the operator has a CDL because the max rating according to your analysis and link to Ford's website is 29000. Think about it!

[jwmbishop]

I just finished a visit with the IRS and I fully understand after my visit that racing is NOT a business if you have other employment that actually pays the bills. It doesn't matter what you think.

 

Did you represent yourself? Did you prepare cites based on case law, previous procedural rulings and private letter rulings?

 

I only ask because I have represented three race ventures in the past 6 years and all were deemed to be businesses (however in one the costs were called startup expenses and forced to be amortised - spread over 15 years- as opposed to all claimed at once). I wouldn't represent it as a business if it's not - but the questions and answers in an opening interview can tell me if the fight is gonna win or not.

 

One thing I have learned - the IRS will say "this is how it is" - yet when you cite their own losses the tend to start negotiating because the LAST thing they want is a ruling against them opening doors for other (unrepresented) taxpayers who back off when they bark....

 

Having a job does NOT make a business venture anything less - provided the motive is profit (and that motive can be proven) it's a business regardless of other incomes. I own 6 businesses - and pull a very good wage from two of them - if just having employment income makes 4 of them not - hmmmmm - I would get better tax treatment if I COULD claim they were not... but off topic

 

PM me if you want some advice - as long as it's within three years you CAN still fix the outcome.... ever notice that the guys who are represented in court get sweeter deals than the guys who just roll over?

[jwmbishop]

By the way, if we decide to believe your analysis, a F350 by itself equipped to haul a fifth wheel cannot be operated by itself unless the operator has a CDL because the max rating according to your analysis and link to Ford's website is 29000. Think about it!

So the F350 by itself is a "combination of vehicles" now?

When not towing the law does not apply.

whatever - I ain't the one who pays the ticket.

[jwmbishop]

WOW - Truck99 - you are right - but then so am I (or rather so was the DPS area supervisor who helped me pick my rig):

 

§ 522.003. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(17) "Gross combination weight rating" means the value

specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination

or articulated vehicle or, if the manufacturer has not specified a

value, the sum of the gross vehicle weight rating of the power unit

and the total weight of the towed unit or units and any load on a

towed unit.

 

§ 522.041. CLASSIFICATIONS. (a) The department may issue

a Class A, Class B, or Class C commercial driver's license.

( B ) Class A covers a combination of vehicles with a gross

combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross

vehicle weight rating of the towed vehicle or vehicles exceeds

10,000 pounds.

( C ) Class B covers:

(1) a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight

rating of 26,001 pounds or more;

(2) a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight

rating of 26,001 pounds or more towing a vehicle with a gross

vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less; and

(3) a vehicle designed to transport 24 passengers or

more, including the driver.

(d) Class C covers a single vehicle or combination of

vehicles not described by Subsection ( B ) or ( C ) that is:

(1) designed to transport 16-23 passengers, including

the driver; or

(2) used in the transportation of hazardous materials

that require the vehicle to be placarded under 49 C.F.R. Part 172,

Subpart F.

(e) The holder of a commercial driver's license may drive

any vehicle in the class for which the license is issued and lesser

classes of vehicles except a motorcycle or moped. The holder may

drive a motorcycle only if authorization to drive a motorcycle is

shown on the commercial driver's license and the requirements for

issuance of a motorcycle license have been met.

 

In other words if Gross Combined is stated thats what they use - if it ain't (and you are right - not all trucks state this value - however Ford does at least sibce the 09 model that I know of) then you add the two individual GVWRs. And it appears that YES you DO need a class b to drive that F350 Dually - even by itself and unloaded (in a commercial venture)!

[termite#99]

Laughing my a$$ off at Mr. Bishop asking Chase if he wants advice on the law.... :lol:

[jwmbishop]

Laughing my a$$ off at Mr. Bishop asking Chase if he wants advice on the law.... :lol:

Why?

Assuming you must know something I don't (like maybe he's a lawyer?) lawyers make good clients too (in fact I have represented them to the IRS a few times).

 

IRS representation is not always the same as contract law or criminal law....

 

The best team is a Lawyer, an EA and a CPA.... IF they can work together.

[hray]

How about he's a police officer.lmao

Now I have a question. I have a class 8 truck conversion. We singled the rear axle, lengthened the frame removed the 5th wheel and converted to a RV. We converted the title to a RV title. It's weight is over 26001lbs. We tow a gooseneck with a GVWR of 15600lbs. It was my understanding when I talked to the DMV and the license tag office that a standard drivers lic is all that's required to operate a RV and as long as the trailer does not exceed 26001 no cdl is needed.

Quite frankly, I'm totally confused with all the examples cited here, although I realize most of these examples refer to Pick-up/trailer combinations. Someone tell me AJ is correct and the fact that it's a RV negates all these other rules.

[Truck99]

How about he's a police officer.lmao

Now I have a question. I have a class 8 truck conversion. We singled the rear axle, lengthened the frame removed the 5th wheel and converted to a RV. We converted the title to a RV title. It's weight is over 26001lbs. We tow a gooseneck with a GVWR of 15600lbs. It was my understanding when I talked to the DMV and the license tag office that a standard drivers lic is all that's required to operate a RV and as long as the trailer does not exceed 26001 no cdl is needed.

Quite frankly, I'm totally confused with all the examples cited here, although I realize most of these examples refer to Pick-up/trailer combinations. Someone tell me AJ is correct and the fact that it's a RV negates all these other rules.

 

Rusty, for the purposes of CDL requirements, RV's are defined in the "applicability" section I linked to earlier in this thread. You'll notice the definition talks about the vehicle being used for recreational camping. I'm not real familiar with how that would be applied to a race car hauler marked as "RV" only that has sleeping quarters, but I will have some clarification on that Mon or Tues. I will say, if a hauler has no sleeping provisions and is over 26001 alone or in combination, it's gonna be a tough sell to call it an RV.

[Truck99]

The deal is, you won't see this GCWR you referenced on any registration computer return run by a law enforcement official. The weight numbers kept by the DOT computers on passenger trucks (even one-tons) are GVRW and empty weight. Big rigs are a different story because they are designed specifically to be used in a combination. With a passenger truck pulling a trailer or not, you are evaluated on what the actual combination is, not what it could potentially be.

 

WOW - Truck99 - you are right - but then so am I (or rather so was the DPS area supervisor who helped me pick my rig):

 

§ 522.003. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(17) "Gross combination weight rating" means the value

specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination

or articulated vehicle or, if the manufacturer has not specified a

value, the sum of the gross vehicle weight rating of the power unit

and the total weight of the towed unit or units and any load on a

towed unit.

 

§ 522.041. CLASSIFICATIONS. (a) The department may issue

a Class A, Class B, or Class C commercial driver's license.

( B ) Class A covers a combination of vehicles with a gross

combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, if the gross

vehicle weight rating of the towed vehicle or vehicles exceeds

10,000 pounds.

( C ) Class B covers:

(1) a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight

rating of 26,001 pounds or more;

(2) a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight

rating of 26,001 pounds or more towing a vehicle with a gross

vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less; and

(3) a vehicle designed to transport 24 passengers or

more, including the driver.

(d) Class C covers a single vehicle or combination of

vehicles not described by Subsection ( B ) or ( C ) that is:

(1) designed to transport 16-23 passengers, including

the driver; or

(2) used in the transportation of hazardous materials

that require the vehicle to be placarded under 49 C.F.R. Part 172,

Subpart F.

(e) The holder of a commercial driver's license may drive

any vehicle in the class for which the license is issued and lesser

classes of vehicles except a motorcycle or moped. The holder may

drive a motorcycle only if authorization to drive a motorcycle is

shown on the commercial driver's license and the requirements for

issuance of a motorcycle license have been met.

 

In other words if Gross Combined is stated thats what they use - if it ain't (and you are right - not all trucks state this value - however Ford does at least sibce the 09 model that I know of) then you add the two individual GVWRs. And it appears that YES you DO need a class b to drive that F350 Dually - even by itself and unloaded (in a commercial venture)!

[Boernebullet]

Yes we did get several tickets some say $1500. some say closer to $5000. for no cdl etc... commercial vechicle enforcer says groos weight combined over 26001 and racing is a business in his eyes. tgried to explain it wasn't a business and he didn't care wether our trailer was recreational or not now we have to find out the laws and fight it. we have talked to several people here in florida this weekend and they have toters with stackers etc.. and because they have restrooms they are excempt and are considered RV. we also heard that when I go to the dmv to get a cdl that I can not get one cause they do not give cdl's for one ton trucks. I will be checking on this one. This guy sits in hays county outside of Katy. He talked about several racers already and I have spoken to one already and they did not get stopped yet, but he had info on them.

[jwmbishop]

Rusty, for the purposes of CDL requirements, RV's are defined in the "applicability" section I linked to earlier in this thread. You'll notice the definition talks about the vehicle being used for recreational camping. I'm not real familiar with how that would be applied to a race car hauler marked as "RV" only that has sleeping quarters, but I will have some clarification on that Mon or Tues. I will say, if a hauler has no sleeping provisions and is over 26001 alone or in combination, it's gonna be a tough sell to call it an RV.

I am pretty sure that the toy haulers they sell are classed as RVs - shooting from the hip on that though as I never got to question it - the wife made me walk from those when she realized I would have to buy Quads to outfit one with....but arguement could be made that IF there is a potty, bed and kitchen its just a big toy hauler. Unfortunately arguing with smokey is worthless - gotta see the judge to win an argument.

 

Funny our 09 Kings has the GCVW on the pillar tag - My brothers '10 F350 dually and the fire engine based on the 3500hd duramax both have their cgvw (29,000 and 20,500 respectivly) on the pillar tag. Maybe the feds mandated at some point they had to start putting it there. Either way to follow the definition by law and the application by law - all the trooper needs do is look at the tag! Nothing says anything about using only what he can get from the computer! I will ask some more - but I relayed and backed up exactly as it was explained to me by a supervisor of the DPS boys that run from Dallas to Madisonville.

[jwmbishop]

How about he's a police officer.lmao

Now I have a question. I have a class 8 truck conversion. We singled the rear axle, lengthened the frame removed the 5th wheel and converted to a RV. We converted the title to a RV title. It's weight is over 26001lbs. We tow a gooseneck with a GVWR of 15600lbs. It was my understanding when I talked to the DMV and the license tag office that a standard drivers lic is all that's required to operate a RV and as long as the trailer does not exceed 26001 no cdl is needed.

Quite frankly, I'm totally confused with all the examples cited here, although I realize most of these examples refer to Pick-up/trailer combinations. Someone tell me AJ is correct and the fact that it's a RV negates all these other rules.

IMO - doesn't matter that he is a cop - "the man who represents himself has a fool for a client" as the saying goes. And last time I checked cops don't enforce the treasury code or operate under Revenue Procedure... so being a cop does not mean he's versed in either. Probably why three of my best clients who are high ranking police officials in the DFW area drive all the way down to see me - need coupled with my proven track record.

 

Ummm that rig is a whole new can of worms - once you started that chop saw you pretty much threw all ratings out the window. Not sure how that applies in Texas law as I have done no coachwork or recieved coachwork training here. In Cal law you would have to submit drawings and engineered specs (by a certified engineer) to the state transportation department to get it re-rated (under 6000 lbs is exempt from the re-rate requirement). So I would not recommend driving it thru Cal!

[ProTree]

i've heard from racer's that do alot of out of state racing that they register(lis plates) their trucks for the combined weight of the truck and loaded trailer.and also have both truck and trailer registered in the same name.some said if the truck and/or trailer are registered to a business,some popo considered it a business vehicle and may be subject to d.o.t. regs regardless.