CC57 Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Anyone done any spark plug testing on an engine dyno? I’m currently running NGKs in my Mod, but I’ve heard of a manufacturer whose plugs can add a few ponies. Any comments, feedback? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 I love this sort of discussion, but they do tend to end up turning into advertisements for this company or that company. So.. please keep the discussion factual and minus the ads please. Thanks. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 PM me your NGK #'s and Motor type. Include what Dist your using and boot angles. I'll put together a price. We have a plug and wire combo that is guaranteed to bring you more Hp/Torque. They are not cheap but then again 5 -10 Hp when everyone has the same stuff is 5 - 10 HP they wont have. I would love to sponsor more people, but as of right now we are tapped out. Let me know if I can help... Mark (OOPS! Does that include me?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 The only real diff in spark plugs is how long they last - dyno testing is too short term for this. The exception is multi electrode - and yes we tested - there is no measurable difference as only ONE spark still occurs at a time - and mutiple discharge negates multi electrode benefits! The only benefit to multi electrode is that you get more sparks before the carbon has built enough enough to relocate the point of fire. The only way to increase ponies is to increase cyl pressure, or stroke leverage - the plug has NOTHING to do with this - it either lights the fire or it don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 The only real diff in spark plugs is how long they last - dyno testing is too short term for this. The exception is multi electrode - and yes we tested - there is no measurable difference as only ONE spark still occurs at a time - and mutiple discharge negates multi electrode benefits! The only benefit to multi electrode is that you get more sparks before the carbon has built enough enough to relocate the point of fire. The only way to increase ponies is to increase cyl pressure, or stroke leverage - the plug has NOTHING to do with this - it either lights the fire or it don't. Interesting as we have proven different... Since Nick has asked to not advertise I will keep it to a PM. But if you do your research you will find that certain materials have less resistance. Now not only look at plugs, but especially plug wires. Again, we have found it and dyno testing is not to short. Also, find out if your rules allow for a O2 bung to be welded in and then removed & plugged for race conditions. In the PM let me know and I'll give you something to look at. Mark (on edit:) I'm curious... So, if I put a "Joes" 2 BC box on my drag mustang and keep my plugs and wires the same then I wont see a Hp/Torque increase? Hummmm!!!!! The more efficient your system is the hotter(voltage) your spark will be and yes that is power... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Mark and Custom Control Modules are paid advertisers on this site and have permission and, as such, are encouraged to promote their products and services here on Lone Star Speedzone. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Thanks Nick... I was typing on an email when you responded. BTW, that brings up a good point. Whether your company is small or big. LSSZ is a great place to spend your advertising monies($$$). As always thanks Nick and thanks LSSZ! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyT66 Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 We try everything looking for whats best for us...The only input i will say, LOOK at your plugs with a magnafing glass..NOT after it has idled in after a race either...You will be shocked at the differece you will see.. Clean burn, LEAN burn or on the edge....The temp at race time can also make a big differece....Frank t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Frank, Great advice. Most people look at the electrode. They don't know to look at the porcelain. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Slow down - I was talking about spark plugs - not an entire system! I fully agree that when you get more voltage down the wire it has a better breakoff on the spark and thus a cleaner kernal and flame front - which truly does bring about power. But when the dyno shows only 1 hp from changing ONLY the plug - one can never tell equivocably that it was the plug! after all you can't just switch back and forth between two plugs to compare while running and many things happen when you shut er down and change them! that one HP could have come from just reseating the wires after a thermal expansion! (and gap is not a close tolerance - it actually changes by as much as .002 every time the plug heat cycles). I have seen a 2-3 hp change (in both directions) just changing the same type of plug out! Even gone so far as to index, then just swap them around to randomly different holes - all within 5HP (both ways!). As much as I hate to say it - in circle races, 5 hp from a engine guy like me is not nearly as valuable as 10 minutes of Nick's suspension knowledge - races are won at the apex. At the dragstrip - yes HP can make the difference more often - but it still comes down to getting the hp to the ground! THATS what wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 very interesting stuff here ...ok ...why would a 350 run better with autolight plugs .but not as good with bosch .....is it different heat ranges ....i know my jeep dont like any plug but champion.s ...... what say you jim............... now for racers ..what is your plug favorite ....we run a champion in the arca head ..suggested by esslinger. the head builder ...with our cast heads ..plain old autolight ..our motors are above 10.1 compression with 4412.s .. 78 to 84 hundred rpm.s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 A maginifying glass? Why short change your optics - bare minimum 100 times mircroscope. And your plugs should be whichever ones like to grab particles. Without the particles they sure are pretty - but tell no tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legfixr Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 very interesting stuff here ...ok ...why would a 350 run better with autolight plugs .but not as good with bosch .....is it different heat ranges ....i know my jeep dont like any plug but champion.s ...... what say you jim............... now for racers ..what is your plug favorite ....we run a champion in the arca head ..suggested by esslinger. the head builder ...with our cast heads ..plain old autolight ..our motors are above 10.1 compression with 4412.s .. 78 to 84 hundred rpm.s I not sure, a lot of brand names thrown around here. I just switched plugs from a 3 prong to a racing plug of totally new design and it instantly gained 6 hp on the dyno all at the same temp, rpm, wires etc. you"d have to pm me I guess to find out the brand if thats ok with nick or just contact me at HMP ON sat at the o6 truck. I think everybody who advertises on here is great and support them when I can. A brand name available a lot of places how ever shouldn"t upset anybody. We mention Hans devices, defenders etc all the time but simpson is an awesome advertiser that I plan to attend their car show in Nov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Let's fire up the barbque, nice hot charcoal fire and throw some steaks on it. If you tossed a lit match on the coals would the steaks cook any faster or the coals burn out any faster? Once the fire is lit and all consuming of the fuel there is nothing more that a spark does for THAT combustion cycle (however a multi spark can clean the cyl for the next charge by catching up re-homogeneitized fuel(s) later discussed). the combustion process is relatively simple. the engine takes in a gas (hopefully air - but not always inclusive, oxygen content, water content and density of either plays HUGE roles in the combustable quality of the drawn gas) and the gas is heated to expand - this expansion must make "peak cyl pressure" at a precise location of the crankshaft position - but it is not instaneous - many folks still believe that the engine works by the force of an explosion driving the piston down where the crank converts the linear to roto motion. An explosion would never harness the same amount of energy over time (definition of HP is torque over time). look at the clock - imagine the second hand is the crank position indicator - peak pressure must occur at 1 oclock - the force of the pistons travel applies pressure to the crank from there until 3-4 oclock (just like pedalling a bicycle - force aplied before then is mechanical interference to the rotational conversion, force remaining after 4 is lost as the arc of the stroke travels the crankpin under the centerline of the cyl - the gains from 3-4 are negligible but present anyway - next time you are using a ratchet to take off a stubborn bolt notice how if you keep your shoulders in place (the cyl centerline) you lose force applied out side of this 90 degree window. This is why timing is critical. It takes time for the fuel to burn out, and this is a (semi)constant, however as RPM increases there is less time for this process to be completed by the needed point of 12 degress after top dead center - so you must start it earlier - advance - but not before peak compression! So why then is there an all in RPM point? Simply the point at which cyl burn time mechanically available exceeds the actual time needed to burn - yes it leaves something on the table - but a very negligble something at best (discussed later). this is because quite simply the faster you compress the gas, the faster the gas starts heating and the faster it burns - so the time of burn becomes self adjusting when RPMs are above the all in point (the semi part of the constant as parenthicated above). So timing is NOT being added to get to that RPM point - it's actually being taken away to adjust for available burn time and efficient operation BELOW it! But wait - weren't we discussing spark plugs making HP - what does timing have to do with it?? Yea well now it's time to get to that... Assume you have 1000 volts to jump the gap at your plugs - thats fine for atmosheric pressure - you can see the spark jump with your naked eye when firing it in the air. However as you compress fuel (a hydrocarbon) into the cyl - the conductivity of the charge's carbons creates a path for the voltage to flow - without exciting the HCs into flame (smothers the arc's corona and kernal). More compression = more carbon molecules between the electrodes = more voltage is needed to make an arc go PAST the HCs (path of least resistance rule). Too much voltage has no negative effect to the combustion process - too little smothers too easy. (light the barbque - flood with fluid and toss a match - woof - does tossing a bigger match do anything better? toss a smaller match and it may not light!). This is why ideally the magneto system works best - however - if it is made to handle high RPMs - it has serious limitations at low speed (driveability issues). this is why you see point driven mags in street vehicles such a motorcycles and pointless mags in drag engines. below there is a link to a real cool video - before you watch it let me explain a couple of things you will see. First the "mule" engine is a stock Honda Engine with a stock capacitive discharge ignition. You can not see the gas - what you will see is the fuel suspended in it - the more you can see the fuel the less it is homogeneous (broken down to its smallest particulates and evenly distributed) with the gas. At the bottom of your throttle plates the fuel is very well mixed into the gas - as the gas changes direction on its path to the cyl (gas is lighter than the fuel and so can turn faster) the fuel bangs into the walls of the ports, valves etc and "falls" out of suspension. Some homogeneity is regained under compression - what does not mix back in is seen as flecks roaming and bouncing about at peak compression (and then again at peak pressure). Peak pressure is quite noticeable - immediatly after occurance the flames become yellow - this is due to oxygen starvation AND fuels that are not part of the charge - such as oils (which are less volatile so burn at slower rates than the fuel HCs) from valve stem, face, cyl walls etc solventised by and bonded into the passing fuel particles. But watch the flash of peak burn compared to the spark VERY closely - you will see the peak burn occurs in less time than the spark - and that is a single spark folks! Combustion process Okay now lets go back to lighting the barbie. If you soak with fluid - and wait - allowing thefluid to soak in some - then light it, YES lighting in more places will create multiple flame fronts that converge and will get to complete burn faster than a single point of ignition. BUT in an internal combustion engine - if you are needing multiple points to get to the same burn percentage in the same amount of time - it NOT the spark plug that is not at optimum - its the mixture, timing and fuel quality (including transient oils) that is leaving something on the table. Adding a few extra sparks will burn off more orphaned fuel particles and show a cleaner burn in the O2 sensor at almost all RPMs - but as those burns are AFTER peak cyl pressure (such as the yellow flames seen above) they are NOT being applied to the crankshaft! Once you are above that self adjusting point (timing "all in" RPM) there are no improvements (other than emmision quality)made by the spark plug alone. Different plugs WILL make differences below that. But if you are racing at those RPMs - you are getting BADLY beaten at the apex. So yes different plug electrode materials, ceramic porosities etc will effect performance - by standing up to repeated fires better, by reaching self cleaning temp (and not overheating) better etc - but again this is matching the plug to the conditions of the engine - not the conditions of the engine to the plug. If changing the spark plug increases the dyno's HP rating - it ain't the plug you put in that should concern you - it's the one you took out. You could put the old one back in and tune to it (using saturation, voltage, amperage, etc) and get those ponies back at that precise condition of operation. In other words a properly tune engineered engine will be at optimum regardless of the size of the match! And presice condition is a moving target - ask yourself this - does the "air" you are drawing contain the same O2, and h2o content and density with clean track as it does when 2" behind a competitor - can you guarantee that you are not drawing some of HIS spent (o2 depleted) air? hmmm so how does THAT compare to the conditions on the dyno where the manufacture is bragging about 5 peak HP gain? thats why I say the dyno is not a true world indicator - even in the controlled environment of the dyno room - the five minutes it takes to change the plug might result in a 1 degree change in temp and the relative moisture content, cyl wall temps and relative oils filming etc - all which effects total HP - so the top HP number means NOTHING - its the total area UNDER the curve line - and in all conditions - and that will remain constant with plug changes because to GAIN something somewhere you HAVE to give up something somewhere else! Now with that said - I always recomend one use all the components of a given system - if your ignition system manufacturer recomends brand X - use it - mixing and matching is harder to troubleshoot or tune as you have gone out of their tested and tried ranges. Unless of course you own your OWN dyno and have unlimited time with it and can capture and repeat in the dyno room the conditions seen on the track... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 Slow Down - No I am trying to help these guys go faster.... That being said I have been to Nick's class and yes I plan on going back in 2011 if times allows. My point with the Joe's box comment was a means to say if you add more voltage/current you can add more gas/air which means power. If you disagree then there is no need to discuss this further. So, if you take the same motor and ignition system and you make "the system" more efficient i.e. better plugs and wires (don't forget ohms law, basic electronics) you will have the potential to make more power again because you have a hotter spark... Ok, again if we can't agree on the basics then lets just quit... This isn't a snake oil sale folks... I will take 6 - 10 Hp on a 350Hp rated motor any day of the week. Yes I'll take 25 even more, but I'm not selling 25Hp. If Stapp has 6 Hp more than Lewien and they are both running the exact same set-up and are 1 & 2 in a 40 lap race. Every lap Stapp would pull away slightly. Also on restarts he would have an advantage... As mentioned, PM me with your needs and we can put a price togther... Mark P.S. Almost forgot, Take that BBQ pit and spray water(resistance) on those coals. What happens when you quinch the heat(power)? I never said add another flame. I am talking about using what you have and make it more effective! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 Actually - I think we do agree. As you said - more voltage means you can add more air fuel before you hit quench again! So the plugs alone ain't doing it! It's actually the more air and fuel doing the gains. So no I never meant to imply it's snake oil - in fact I support your systematic approach and highly recomend someone to go to you rather than try to buy bolt on horsepower by picking what is percieved to be the best parts individually - the total of the parts being greater than the sum of the parts. It's comparable to cutting off your stock muffler, adding a flow master and believing you just increased 40% in HP (with no change to ign timing, valve timing or opening, closing rate, lift etc, or air fuel mixture changes) - after all connecting a garden hose to a straw does not increase the straws ability to flow more air!!! Yes the flowmaster CAN increase - but only in conjunction with the other stuff (which is why the ads say increase 40% * - you gotta follow the * mods as well)! the question was is there a spark plug that will increase HP - the answer is still NO. Its takes more than just a spark plug to do it! Thats why one SHOULD come see you - to get the whole dinner - not just the entre'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 link - this technology is showing real promise - would light the fire under even the worse of conditions (like sucking a lot of water - as in driving in Houston humidity!!) as is this: link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 Well I think we ran him off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastgranpaw Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 My head hurts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 Yours? Thats what happens when you get into a debate over a few Hp here and a few there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double D racing Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 ok since yal are on the sparkplug topic still,im runnin camel hump heads(big plugs) and i have 1 plug up against the header that keeps burnin through insulators.is there a shorter plug i can run that will help this situation???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 the accell shorty will fit - but I personally don't like them. they are stingy with the insulator's ability to retain the particulates - in other words if you are pushing the envelope on mixture you will probably loose the head gasket before the plug lets you know with the telltale signs of silver specs on the nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double D racing Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 the accell shorty will fit - but I personally don't like them. they are stingy with the insulator's ability to retain the particulates - in other words if you are pushing the envelope on mixture you will probably loose the head gasket before the plug lets you know with the telltale signs of silver specs on the nose. ok...thats a little scary,is there a second option??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 the accell shorty will fit - but I personally don't like them. they are stingy with the insulator's ability to retain the particulates - in other words if you are pushing the envelope on mixture you will probably loose the head gasket before the plug lets you know with the telltale signs of silver specs on the nose. ok...thats a little scary,is there a second option??? Tune and plug read with a champion (I have found they indicate the best), best to show a little cinnamon color (some guys like to push to just between cin and white - but I have seen where that leaves just a little hp on the table, so I only go there on a long race w\ a needed pit stop where 2-10 laps more per tank of fuel can be the diff)- then run with the shorty (thats where you get the most heat build up - hot laps and qual should not be a big issue especially if you can stuff a wrap between the header and boot) - just make sure you are using the direct cross references for the heat range, reach etc so as not to effect the burn time... AND SHUT DOWN AT WOT TO SHOW TRUE CONDITIONS (coming thru the pits will add color!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 ok since yal are on the sparkplug topic still,im runnin camel hump heads(big plugs) and i have 1 plug up against the header that keeps burnin through insulators.is there a shorter plug i can run that will help this situation???? Which plugs/# are you running now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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