thumper Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 I found that old post and brought it up just to show that success can be achieved.I dont know how to do quotes so is another thread.The point is we can do it again.Lets build cars and get sponsers.ALL ABORD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 My opinion is you should never make last years team buy more stuff to race next year in any class..... .. DONT LOOK IN THE MIRROR ..YOU MAYBE THE REASON WHY THIS ALL GOT STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE .... SEEING YOU WONT SLOW YOUR CAR DOWN .THEY MAY HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING TO HELP THEM OUT ..AND IT MAY COST MONEY .. ARE YOU SUGGESTING TO MIKE AND DRIVERS . THEY NEED TO STAY WITH WHAT THEY HAVE .... PLUS I SUPPOSE THAT MEANS YOU DONT WANT TO CHANGE YOUR REAR END SET UP .......... WELL I WILL AGREE WITH YOU ..THAT WAY SOMEONE WONT SPEND ANY MONEY ADDING WEIGHT JACKS TO THIER CARS ..... ADDING SPRINGS THEY WILL NEED IN ORDER TO RUN WITH WEIGHT JACKS ..SO THAT COST IS NOT THERE ...... NOW YOU BROUGHT UP PURSES ...WE ALL KNOW YOU HAVE RACED LONG ENOUGH ..RACEN JUST FOR THE LOVE OF IT IS LONG PAST ... THE PURSE MONEY IS WHAT YOU ARE AFTER ..ASLONG AS EVERYONE ELSE FOLLOWS YOU ........ NOW YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOULT ALL THIS BS ON HERE ONLY HURTS THE CLASS ..... IVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE SAY I WONT RACE WITH THEM CUZ THEY BS ALL THE TIME ABOULT WANTING SOMETHING TO HELP THEM EVEN THE CLASS UP ........ THAT BS HAS BEEN AROUND SENSE RACEN WAS INVENTED ..... .... .. HOW EVER THIS TURNS OUT .WE WILL MAKE THE ADJUSTMENTS OUR CARS NEED TO RACE WITH THUNDERS ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappy_GT13 Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 The original post was about rear camber/steer for FWD's & if I read it correctly, weight jacks for RWD's ONLY. No mention of TIRES. I only posted after being asked what I thought. I think it is easier for Tech to look at a number stamped on the sidewall than it is to roll each car over a sheet of paper but I really don't care how you do it. On weight jacks, I don't need them & probably would never bother to install them. If I wanted & could afford to run TPS I would; I choose to run CC only. As I said in my previous post, I would like to modify the rear suspension because I think there is more to be gained for less $$$ & work. But NO changes at all would be fine too.I NEVER asked that GB be slowed down. GB has had basically the same car for a couple of Decades now, you can't stop him with rule or tire changes because he's had to do it BEFORE. If you knew your cars as well as he knows his you could beat him. I was almost there but I've only run the combination I have now for 2 abbreviated seasons. I HAVE NOT gotten everything this car can give yet. QUIT worrying about what GB has, buy some books on suspension, TAKE Nicks' classes, work on your setup. I went from a back runner to a top 5 car with just suspension work, then I added a good engine & was able to race with the front runners. No "trick" parts or anything else are going to give you some great advantage. AS Forest would put it - That's all I've got to say about that. Just CURIOUS, BUT HOW would you TECH guys write a tire rule for this class, keeping in mind the different sizes we need to run. Can you show us how a GOOD rule would be written? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdaddy Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 OK, ditch the tire rule......Something else to bring up. How about implementing weight and height rules as there is only a minimum weight, I think it should set at how much left side percent and so forth. So for starters, does anyone want to share some numbers that they are running now? I promise I won't tell anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJ34 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 I THINK IF YOU RACE A CAR YOU SHOUD HAVE SOME SORT OF IN PUT NOT LET EVEYONE KEEP THING GOING THIS STARTED ABOUT WEIGHT JACKS NOT TIRES MAKEING SURE ALL THE GEARS WORK IN TRANSMISON LETS GET BACK TO THE TOPIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdaddy Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Well, we got as far as we could with the tires, weight jacks and the transmission deal. So what do you guys think about the weight deal??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Well, we got as far as we could with the tires, weight jacks and the transmission deal. So what do you guys think about the weight deal??? i give up .. whats the use . run what you brung ..not many rwd drivers on here want anything ..so leave it as it is ..some good ideals have come along . and seems like the drivers dont really want change or know what to ask for .and don when you bring up something ..you get kicked in the bud .or seeing you dont race there .why bother to stick your nose into it ..not thinking we may have a couple of cars racen there next year .. so i say this to mike .add weight jacks .and let em run ..thats back to what this thread started on ...im done .now its up to everyone else ....if we race there we will run what the rules say .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdaddy Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Don't give up OT. You know as well as I do that when the rules come out and someone sees' something they don't like........well they can't say they didn't have an oppertunity to voice an opinion. I know that that post was not directed at me. I race to work in the mornings and race home in the evenings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJ34 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 WHAT DO YOU THING CAN BE DONE ABOUT THE WEIGHT WE ALREADY HAVE A MINIMUM WEIGHT HOW WOULD YOU SET ANY OTHER WEIGHT RULES IF YOU ARE FWD YOU HAVE TO MEET THIS WEIGHT IF YOU ARE RWD YOU CAN WEIGH THIS AMOUNT IF YOU HAVE A 2.0 THIS MUCH 2.3 THIS MUCH IF YOU ARE A PINTO THIS MUCH IF YOU RUN AUTOMATIC THIS MUCH ? DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE HOW TO SET THE RULES UP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappy_GT13 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 At one time there was a 55% MAX left side weight rule in this class. This would only effect someone with a very light car adding a lot of ballast on the left side. Since my car is approx. 2200 lbs. w/o driver I'm stuck with what I have unless I want to add weight just to get left side percentage up. 1155 lbs. is 55% of 2100 so someone with an 1800 lb. car that started at 50% could theoretically add 300 lb & at 1200 lb left side be slightly over 57%. I think this is just something the track will have to decide if they want to limit left side weight to "even" things out. As far as I know we've never had a minimum height rule. I don't think one is necessary because you quickly learn that a car that is too low with stock suspension mounting points doesn't does not handle well. Too many different cars to set a standard, in my opinion. I'm willing to carry on a civil discussion with anyone, just not take crap for my opinion. Show me a better way & back it up with facts & I'll be glad to go along. Just don't make changes for no good reason. As far as I know the ONLY opinion that matters is the TRACK OWNER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdaddy Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Well I see I ruffled some feathers, whatever it was I did I don't know. All I am trying to do is get more input on the rules so that everyone has the same chance to win on any given night. I am not going to get into a pissing contest with someone that has no interest in making the class grow, and believe me I have more of an interest in helping it grow than you do. I do not know what type of car you drive or if you even do, but don't start trying to put me down for whatever reason you think you might have I would like to know. You can post here or pm me just remember Nicks' rules. The thing about the rules the way they are now, are so full of loopholes and gray areas it isn't even funny. I think there needs to a left side rule, a right side rule and a ride height rule and more rule clarification. I'll see you all at the drivers meeting when it takes place. If anyone wants to discuss any of this with me I am not hard to find at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Don't give up OT. You know as well as I do that when the rules come out and someone sees' something they don't like........well they can't say they didn't have an oppertunity to voice an opinion. I know that that post was not directed at me. I race to work in the mornings and race home in the evenings i must be getting older .. i drive slowly to work ...grandpal typ .....pappy your smart enough to see what we were getting at ..bj 34 .. read what pappy posted .your answer is there ..ratdaddy . i say leave it alone lol ..cuz i may want to take full advantage of all those loop holes ....guys all in good faith here .no pun intended .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neon14 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 This is what I would do. no motor rules no suspension rules a minimum fwd weight a minimum rwd weight max wheel width 5.5" max tire width say 6" maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdaddy Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Will check your pm.... How about slicks and bone stock everything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappy_GT13 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Ratdaddy, I've said what you are saying for YEARS. I was even asked back around 95 to go through the rules & make them clearer, take out stuff that didn't apply anymore & move some to another section where they made more sense. Basically changed nothing, got accused of trying to take over the class & write rules to my advantage. Since then I've only asked for tracks' interpertation of an existing rule, like the all foward gears thing last year. I've also been told before that they didn't want 10-12 pages of rules, but that is the only way to make this class fair. You have to write rules for specific groups of cars because they are all so different. I've also already said what I would like to change. Don't think anyone else has actually specified any changes. Don't JUST complain, state an alternative to what you don't like. What you are trying to do is a thankless job, I wish you luck & I will help you as much as I can. BTW, when will a rules meeting for this class be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdaddy Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Don't know Pappy....I am just trying to help with constructive feedback which is not gaining much ground. Michael, When is the Thunder meeting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flipper13 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 This is what I would do. no motor rules no suspension rules a minimum fwd weight a minimum rwd weight max wheel width 5.5" max tire width say 6" maybe? How will this help the class grow , you will have guys showing up with $10,000 motors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdaddy Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Well because 6" tires aren't enough for $10,000 motors.......or something like that..no never mind you can adjust the weight jacks Richard when you coming down for a visit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Will check your pm.... How about slicks and bone stock everything else? now your talking ...they would be surprised how fast they could go on that set up .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumper Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 All this talk about re-writing the rule book is not only not helping but will discourage the existing teams.Constant rule changes are what keeps many people away now.I agree with Pappy if someone needs something paticular for a type of car they should petetion for that item,not a rewrite. I believe what Michael wanted was to allow weight jacks so that some cars with them can join us,like Lalo or prehaps other Pro cars.As far as the rear camber for FWD cars it doesnt mean anything.The only advantage is to make the RR tire last longer on cars with camber loss.If we can get a couple of more cars with the weight jack thing Im all for it.Nothing was said about re-writing the rulebook and I dont think that will happen.Don,with all the loopholes someone with racing experience with an adjustable car might come here and show us all how its done.Its not likely because V8 racers will not race 4 cyl cars.Even if they did theres no guarntee they could drive any better than our drivers.As far as those 10K motors,we have a claim rule to cover that.It was a whole car claim until the same people changed it to engine only claim.The whole car claim defined the value of the car we were racing. We have to look at the big picture.A large budget team is not going to race Thunder cars.Theres just too many options.Like it or not we are competeting with the dirt track for cars and fans.The most attractive package will be the most successful.CC is the only 4 cyl class running in Corpus (stock car type) and this is our selling point.The street tires determans how fast the car will be,period.Slicks will only seperate the cars farther apart and all the money goes to the tire dealer.I cannot get 2 seasons out of any slick.NASCAR will not let the cars modernize and thats why they are running so close.We have the advantage of allowing modern ideas.For someone who really wants to explore their ideas our class offers the best oppourtunity.Im afraid though if a Bruce Beddos,a Greg Sr or Jr or any of the other experienced racers were to join us some would call foul.Why?Too many years of yesterdays thinking Now I still want to hear specific ideas about getting more cars.Havent heard any yet.All Ive heard is noise.Why fix what aint broke?We are not US Senators.We do have a good program and good people.And a track made for us.Theres not a better Thunder car,ministock,Hornet,or Sport Compact program anywhere.We just need a series sponser who we could name the class after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappy_GT13 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I'm only saying that if a certain type of car IS allowed something NOT in the rules, it should be ADDED to the rules. Weight jacks, coilovers, & aftermarket suspension parts have always been a sort of dividing line between Pro Sedans & the CC cars. And I believe there was a provision in the rules at one time for TPS cars to run at CC with street tires but they had to meet TPS weight rule for their car; including left side percentages. I don't know what is fair but I don't want to see any further escalation in the cost of a CC car. I'd rather give TPS cars that want to run CC some options than upgrade to their rules. Rewriting the rule book to make it clear what IS allowed will help encourage people to build cars; making changes or having "agreements" with Tech NOT outlined in the rules will discourage participants. BTW, if I could afford it I would probably build a Chevette with a 2.0 or 2.2L . The Chevette we built back in the 90's weighed just over 1600 lbs. with driver. 500 lbs of ballast on the left side (about 62%) & it would corner like a slot car until you had to turn right to avoid a wreck.Then all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS #9 BB Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 ...BTW, if I could afford it I would probably build a Chevette with a 2.0 or 2.2L . The Chevette we built back in the 90's weighed just over 1600 lbs. with driver. 500 lbs of ballast on the left side (about 62%) & it would corner like a slot car until you had to turn right to avoid a wreck.Then all bets are off. I remember that Chevette just got rid of it a couple of months ago. only car my leg fell asleep in from holding the pedal to the floor (never lifted) ah the good old days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 ...BTW, if I could afford it I would probably build a Chevette with a 2.0 or 2.2L . The Chevette we built back in the 90's weighed just over 1600 lbs. with driver. 500 lbs of ballast on the left side (about 62%) & it would corner like a slot car until you had to turn right to avoid a wreck.Then all bets are off. I remember that Chevette just got rid of it a couple of months ago. only car my leg fell asleep in from holding the pedal to the floor (never lifted) ah the good old days yep fun days .cheap to ......gb the rules havent stoped lalo or our car from running there if we wanted .too .. with our car .it does not like street tires .. as the set up is now .. i believe lalo has weight jacks . and that didnt help him either he never turned his . ..as for rear camber .you know that will help you through the turn.s ....this not helping other than tire wear is makeing me laugh ..thanks thats funny ..as for larger tire on right than left .that split does not have much affect on gear ratio as been said .. turning in and comeing off the turn is a better answer i see nothing wrong with that ...just dont use it as a gear issue ...cuz if that be the case . it would affect our gear ratio useing stagger ...... now a track or drivers comeing up with ideals to try and find some common rules in which to even up the class ..does not discourage others from racen with the class as you said .not doing anything would be worst .. in fact you even suggesting that openly may cause that to be brought into thought ....NOW we have had our trying times with tps rules as you know ..though it isnt ever going to be 100 percent perfect .neil has adjusted them . and i beleive the class and compitition has really been close and even this last season .if you read his rules for next year . nothing changed ...no gripe from here ..thats new lol ..... SO THE BOTTOM LINE IS WHAT .......you said noone has come up with anything ...WELL WE ARE WAITING for your exsperties .....come up with something we all can live by .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLTL0518 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 THEY SHOULD LEAVE ALL THE RULES BE , THE BULL RING IS ALL ABOUT SETUP NOT MOTOR DRIVERS SHOULD GO TO SCHOOL AND LEARN SUSPENSION TO RACE THE BULLRING. LETS GO RACING (WINTER RACING) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumper Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 OK Mike,a couple of things right off.First,there are many models with small engines that would make great Thunder cars but have no chance at 2100 lbs.We should go back to pound per cc like it was for years including your favorite years.A Honda Civic with a 1600 should weigh 1600 lbs.Some are 1500cc others are 1800 cc.These cars are already out of competetion as it is now.Why??? Next the cars with automatics need something to help them.Fact is an automatis 4 cyl will not equal a standard.We have a chance to get some cars from Thunderhill if we can give them something to be competetive.They are all stock FWD and automatic.With a couple of bolt on things like more tire or less weight or something a good modern automatic car can run with us on street tires.What would get them intrested in running CC on off nites.They only race twice a month.What can we offer them??? We should try to get some McAllen thunders too.They have been tweeking their rules and may now be fast enough.They also run only twice a month.I37 has minnies now and I dont know what they run.Racing on Fridays gives them a chance to race here on Sat.How can we intice them??? I know you want to go back to 92 for your golden years.I want to return to 05 when we had over 20 cars regulary and some of the best and fast racing with many different winners.Now how are YOU going to get more cars?From where?How??? Not only do you not race at CC,you are taking our champion with you next year to Pro Sedans as well. Now is the time for positive ideas for growth.Rules dont get cars,period.No matter what they are.A person who doesnt think tire diameter changes gearing or anything on a rear suspension affects speed of a FWD car is behind a little. I believe the key to growth will come from the respect Thunder drivers have for each other and the fun we have racing.Lots of people enjoy being a part of something good.Its the people that will make or break this deal.So far its not doing so well on this post.Even our promoter doesnt want in on this.Its all been said a million times. What I do know is the active Thunder drivers are a great bunch.They will help any new people intrested in this deal.They will welcome the out of town guys just like they do for me.I wish I lived closer,I would have all my friends and some family members racing with us.Just like we did at RGS in the 90s.Inclusion not exclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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