talk about thunders

[Michael & Mitzi]

once again if you only unload your car to run practice laps and features and never gather info and make adjustments your car will never improve.GB will use the time to work on the car,change tires ,pressures,ect and run lines all over the track under practices which is why he can pass you on the outside thru the turns..he knows what the car will do in different lines. there is no substitution for data and driver input to make the car handel

[CJY08]

Wait a second Gb, put Don in a thunder we saw what he can do in the VW Bug you sure thats a good idea? Don just make sure you don't have a stringer on it. I already got so much hearing loss GB is using his horn instead of just passing me.

[ratdaddy]

GB, so far not one RWD driver has posted what it would take to even the field, quite frankley I don't think they know. Michael is correct about drivers not taking advantage on working on their cars or trying to set them up. When this post first came up I had thought about it, and reread the rules and thought to myself, man, there is so much the RWD can do with there cars but aren't. So I ask my self why? Two things came to mind, not reading and understanding the rules and not working on the cars. It is as simple as that.

I do not race much anymore because I am having more fun being a father than a racer right now. Maybe at a later time but now it just isn't the same for me anymore.

[NickHolt]

The best thing Thunders could have is a couple of well known V8 racers join Thunders to show what the potential really is and make it "OK" to race one.If we ever achieve creditability the series will flourish.You cant blame the racers,at most tracks 4 cyl cars are eather pure stock bombers or limited to kids only or beginners.Outside of Pro Sedans and CC Speedway your time in 4 cyls is limited.

This scenario actually happened a few years back in the Pro Sedans....

 

Former TIDA Super Late Model driver Leroy Farmer and his team put together a Pro Sedan tube-frame Mustang a few years back. Between his RWD Ford and Randy Lee's RWD Ford, which was not a tube frame car, they pretty much dominated the other RWD Fords that were running under the same set of rules. And more recently, Mike Balzer and Pat Lane - two of the most savvy suspension guys around - put together another Ford that was clearly faster than the rest in spite of the fact that they had a rookie driver - Pat Lane's son, Ja - behind the wheel.

 

If anyone takes this as a put down, they shouldn't, because it's not. The whole point is that competition rules should not be adjusted to match the knowledge/skill/proficiency level of the competitors in that class. The rules should be written as if everyone competing in that class had the same level of expertise.

 

Nick

[ratdaddy]

I'm with you Nick, for instance the weight rule, 2100#. No left side rule, no ride height, no track width and so on. So if someone is racing and not using the rules to there advantage and not running up front, then that is the person that is not studying the rules and working on the car. That is just one example.

[HiTech]

once again if you only unload your car to run practice laps and features and never gather info and make adjustments your car will never improve.GB will use the time to work on the car,change tires ,pressures,ect and run lines all over the track under practices which is why he can pass you on the outside thru the turns..he knows what the car will do in different lines. there is no substitution for data and driver input to make the car handel

mike instead of me beating around the bush like i have ..you just said what this whole problem is aboult ... if you are not testing .. and trying different set ups .. .. you will not be able to learn what the car needs . what the driver needs ... you can read books .you can watch video .you can go to a class and learn aboult setting up a car ..but if you dont practice .and try things . all that you have learned is for not ... most of those rwd.s in thunder .could outrun gb ..the power is there .. ... .we put a ton of practice laps on the 7 .last year .it was bent some ..i asked questions .. had randy lees dad come over to the shop and help me find some things and came up with some good ideal.s even randy had some at cc ..alot of tps teams had some good ideals. .. i took alot of what every one said .added with what i know what the driver was telling me .and got that 7.. 97 percent back up to par ....... we through the book at that car .tried everything ..in practice and took chances just before a race .in hopes it worked ....... thats what this class needs now... weight jacks wont help when every thing else is off ....... if nick had a class down here /i would jump at the chance to go to it ..... i need some of his teachings .. .cuz it could only help .

[neon14]

yea pretty much no rules. in all the years that I ran thunder cars I never failed tech. there are hardly any rules in that class but would it really matter if there were more rules?

[runninfords]

First of all I don't think that all the FWD's are that much better than the RWD's. Johnnie, randy and I as well as a few others have a fast enough car to run with most FWD's. I have worked on my car alot more this past year and made it a hell of a lot better compared to last season. Like that hundred lap feature I was the only one who did not get lapped and that was on a three year old motor with stock short block and a hydraulic head shaved 60 and a mild cam. My dad always made me work on the suspension instead of giving me a better motor. There are a lot of cars out there that just try to put more motor and do not worry about the suspension. I do not see why we can not run weight jacks we are already allowed to run adjustable spacers (Hidden weight jacks) and most the other mustangs have them I dont care if the FWD's are allowed to mess with rear camber I dont think that they will be able to walk away from us. I know that we are not going to pick up half a second when we race but it would just help us make quicker adjustments. I do not think that Gb's car is that bad. I just think that either we need mirrors or he needs to pull his mirror. He is a really good driver and should be able to drive with out a mirror if we have to. I do not think we need anymore evening out. There is a neon that runs mid pack. I'm not scared of 16 neon either. I used to think that Gb was unfair in some way but I realized this year that a little more work to my car and I was running right behind him. When a modern car wants to come in then I say let them and we can work with evening out then. Right now I do not think that we need shocks to "keep up", I do think that we need to set a metric size width of tires everyone runs metrics so there is no if, ands, or buts about it. Like I said I am right behind Gb and I weigh 2400 pounds and I have stock springs and no spacers in the front and I am still working on the way the car handles.All I have now is a fresh 2300 stock rod block and unported or polished solid head and almost had that darn rabbit if it wont for that bad restart. This is just my opinion.

[ratdaddy]

That is what I am talking about, thanks Cody. I have witnessed drivers come to the track, air up the tires while it is still on the trailer, unload and start working on the car, break in practice or the heat race and then sit in the stands to watch the feature to only bad mouth the leaders that they are cheating and on and on and on. Instead they should be figuring out what they need to do to their own car to make it run before next saturday. Now I understand that drivers often work long hours during the week at regular jobs to support a family and may not have a lot of time to work on the car, and I don't have a problem with that, but what I do have a problem with is blameing everyone else that runs good for finding the time to understand the rules and working on the cars to make them handle. OK enough of that I'm going to refill my coffee cup now.

[HiTech]

First of all I don't think that all the FWD's are that much better than the RWD's. Johnnie, randy and I as well as a few others have a fast enough car to run with most FWD's. I have worked on my car alot more this past year and made it a hell of a lot better compared to last season. Like that hundred lap feature I was the only one who did not get lapped and that was on a three year old motor with stock short block and a hydraulic head shaved 60 and a mild cam. My dad always made me work on the suspension instead of giving me a better motor. There are a lot of cars out there that just try to put more motor and do not worry about the suspension. I do not see why we can not run weight jacks we are already allowed to run adjustable spacers (Hidden weight jacks) and most the other mustangs have them I dont care if the FWD's are allowed to mess with rear camber I dont think that they will be able to walk away from us. I know that we are not going to pick up half a second when we race but it would just help us make quicker adjustments. I do not think that Gb's car is that bad. I just think that either we need mirrors or he needs to pull his mirror. He is a really good driver and should be able to drive with out a mirror if we have to. I do not think we need anymore evening out. There is a neon that runs mid pack. I'm not scared of 16 neon either. I used to think that Gb was unfair in some way but I realized this year that a little more work to my car and I was running right behind him. When a modern car wants to come in then I say let them and we can work with evening out then. Right now I do not think that we need shocks to "keep up", I do think that we need to set a metric size width of tires everyone runs metrics so there is no if, ands, or buts about it. Like I said I am right behind Gb and I weigh 2400 pounds and I have stock springs and no spacers in the front and I am still working on the way the car handles.All I have now is a fresh 2300 stock rod block and unported or polished solid head and almost had that darn rabbit if it wont for that bad restart. This is just my opinion.

...well said as for tires i say get off that tire rule ..make it easier to find tires that are 8 inch ..

[ratdaddy]

If you are going to run one type tire that would be good, but it would need to be regulated. or if you run all different type brands like it is now the best way to regulate that would be with a minimum durometer reading. say no less that 55 at any given time. What about that type of rule?

[BJ34]

THE ONLY PROBLEM ABOUT TIRES IS BOTH THE NEON RUN 15 INCH TO MAKE THE GEARS WE NEED SOME OF THE MUSTANGS RUN 13 14 OR 15 INCH TO MAKE THE RIGHT GEAR SET UP THEY NEED SO YOU COULD NOT JUST PICK A SIZE AND THAT IS THE ONLY SIZE YOU CAN RUN IT WOULD COST SOME OF THE CAR TO MUCH MONEY TO CHANG OVER SO THEY MIGHT PARK THEM TILL SOME THING DIFFERENT IS DONE

 

JMO

[ratdaddy]

Run any size just have a durometer (tire hardness) rule. What do you think Pappy? You have been too quiet lately.

[BJ34]

THAT MIGHT WORK BUT YOU MIGHT HAVE TO GIVE MORE THAN ONE TREAD WEAR SOME PEOPLE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO FIND THAT TREAD WEAR IN THE SIZE THEY RUN LIKE BETWEEN 200 TO 350 JUST PUTTING OUT A NUMBER DONT KNOW THE REAL TREAD NUMBERS

[runninfords]

THE ONLY PROBLEM ABOUT TIRES IS BOTH THE NEON RUN 15 INCH TO MAKE THE GEARS WE NEED SOME OF THE MUSTANGS RUN 13 14 OR 15 INCH TO MAKE THE RIGHT GEAR SET UP THEY NEED SO YOU COULD NOT JUST PICK A SIZE AND THAT IS THE ONLY SIZE YOU CAN RUN IT WOULD COST SOME OF THE CAR TO MUCH MONEY TO CHANG OVER SO THEY MIGHT PARK THEM TILL SOME THING DIFFERENT IS DONE

 

JMO

i said METRIC SIZE WIDTH like 215 or 225 and what ever series what ever rim, im runing 14s and might go to 15s when i know what size we can run. no 1 street tire(size or brand) will work for or make everyone happy. that is one thing i would like to know soon.

[HiTech]

THE ONLY PROBLEM ABOUT TIRES IS BOTH THE NEON RUN 15 INCH TO MAKE THE GEARS WE NEED SOME OF THE MUSTANGS RUN 13 14 OR 15 INCH TO MAKE THE RIGHT GEAR SET UP THEY NEED SO YOU COULD NOT JUST PICK A SIZE AND THAT IS THE ONLY SIZE YOU CAN RUN IT WOULD COST SOME OF THE CAR TO MUCH MONEY TO CHANG OVER SO THEY MIGHT PARK THEM TILL SOME THING DIFFERENT IS DONE

 

JMO

. tps has .fords . bmw ..vw and vw bugs . .chevy .toyota .and one i maynot have thought of ..they all run one tire ..and you can get em in 13.s and up . now im not suggesting at all in going with tps tires .but id bet some brand has what you need ..to help even a field is always a good thing to run the same tire .or as don .mentioned .one compound ..guys this isnt going to be easy .never has .some or going to have to give and take in both ways ....... i havent taken count .but i know maybe 90 percent are running the same tire ..summos ..... personly i dont like that tire no stagger .... unless you run larger wheels .on the right ..then you need three of both sizes as to have a spare .. ....but it last ..... ...question ... gb what tire is it your running ..i dont remember the brand .. and what do they cost .and can you get em in 13.s and up ..just incase someone else wants to run em if nothing else... this is food for thought seeing the season wont start for a few months ...

[Pappy_GT13]

Just waiting to see what others thoughts were since I usually get yelled at for my opinions.

I think the fewer rules changes the better. Knowing a class has stable rules that don't change much year to year encourages new people to build cars. Clear rules that state exactly what can be done allow a newbie to build a competitive car from the start. This is why TPS is sucessful.

 

If you want a stock mini class then follow Thunderhills example & start a totally stock class, don't kill off what you already have. Most of the cars you have now can not be reverse engineered to meet those rules.

 

If the rules are clear no one shows up with a transmission with gears removed to lighten rotating mass. I asked about that rule because it would cost me little to do but some would have to pay to have it done. Just trying to keep it fair for all & save some time & money.Sorry, GB, but I know you have plenty of trannies but not everyone does.

 

As for tires , I'm happy with the street tires- changing to anything else just costs $$$$ I don't have to spend. Setting a width & durometer rating or using the tire makers wear rating would be fine with me. A tire width of 215-225 with no limit on aspect ratio or rim size would allow those who need it a choice. Wear ratings can be found at places like the Tire Rack but I don't think they list a durometer rating.

 

I would like to be able to modify the mustang 4-link to a 3-link with a panhard bar but don't know that I would get around to doing it.I don't think weight jacks would help me much since I only run CC . I don't have the time & energy to work on this car like I did my old one.

I'm trying to get my life reorganized where I can finish repairs to my car & get back to the track next year.

 

Now that you're probably sorry you asked I'll climb down off my soapbox & give someone else a chance.

[ratdaddy]

link

OK this is just for example on a clear cut tire rule that is fair and I ran under it for years on dirt and asphalt with the same tire. What do you think about it?

[Pappy_GT13]

link

OK this is just for example on a clear cut tire rule that is fair and I ran under it for years on dirt and asphalt with the same tire. What do you think about it?

 

Looks pretty good but the tires I have now are 215/50 x 13 with a treadwear rating of 380. Tire Racks' current price is $46 each. I would rather see a width number & max rim width rule rather than a tread width (contact patch) rule which may change with air pressure. When you're trying to find tires it would be easier to go by a number than try to guess what the width will be once the tire is mounted & on the car. Goess I'm just saying the Dwarf Car rule is close but could be tweaked a little for this class.

[ratdaddy]

You already have a max width rule in place. The tire contact patch will not change with air pressure unless you have a flat. The tire rule will force some to tweak the car to the track with suspension adjustments. Whatever is decided (which is not up to me) I feel that it should be that everyone should be on the same level and keep it as simple and clear as possible. Whatever decision is made, it needs to be made for the whole class and not just 1 or 2 cars.

[HiTech]

You already have a max width rule in place. The tire contact patch will not change with air pressure unless you have a flat. The tire rule will force some to tweak the car to the track with suspension adjustments. Whatever is decided (which is not up to me) I feel that it should be that everyone should be on the same level and keep it as simple and clear as possible. Whatever decision is made, it needs to be made for the whole class and not just 1 or 2 cars.

ten four on 1 or 2 cars ..i think the tires need to be 8 inch max .. that helps when deciding what tire you want to run ..if its dot then all dot tires should be legal .......

[runninfords]

ten four on 1 or 2 cars ..i think the tires need to be 8 inch max .. that helps when deciding what tire you want to run ..if its dot then all dot tires should be legal .......

 

That sound good to me. I would just like to know what the rules are going to be before I get new tires.

[thumper]

I think the tire rule is just fine as is.If you wanted to add a durometer minimum thats OK too.To regulate brands or size of wheel is just like telling everyone on a bowling team they have to use the same size shoe.The reason the engine rules are open is for someone to use what they already have and not have to buy special parts.Each car can decide whats best for them.The tire rule now allows someone to get tires anywhere,new or used to be able to race.A one tire rule makes everyone buy only that tire.Different cars will need different sizes.Many of the modern cars come with 15,16,or even 17" wheels.The factory decided this was the best size for that car.Many cars have no option on gearing so tire diameter makes the gear.Making one tire for all cars is exactly like the Super Street rules that has people asking why there are only Camaros running.The Fords and Chrysler cars have different needs.

I carry a duromoter all the time and do know about tires.I have a short set(Sumotomos) and a tall set (Kumos)Sumo does not make a 15" tire with the right rollout with a treadwidth the same as the 13.To get a 7 1/4 inch Sumo in a 15 it is 27 inches tall.I need 25".The Neons need 26" or better to run the necessary speed without hitting the revlimiter.Do you want different types of cars or not?If you only want RWD,theres already a class for that.Its Pro 4s.Mike,I showed you what I run and an advertizment in a magazine from Tire Rack.Will prefered the Dunlops because he found a good price on them.BTW,I was about to finish the year on my 06 tires,thats 3 seasons,until Cody was outrunning me.Without that caution I was falling back so I bought new tires.ANY BRAND of new tires is faster than old tires at CC Speedway.Even in Pro Sedands the guys that win dont use old tires.They only run about 8 times a year so its not a problem.My Sumos dial in between 65 and 70 on the meter and the Kumos dial in at 75 new and my old ones were 85.The problem with a duromerer is as the tires heat up they get softer.To regulate with a durometer you have to do it cold to be accurate.The Pro Sedan Hoosers start at 40 or 35 for the F60 and go up about 5 points per race.I know because I discovered them for South Texas.

Tire choice is just one more tuning device.If we are going to race like racers we need choices.A softer tire is good for a short race and a harder tire is better for a long race.Any tire used should be idenitified and available to anyone,anotherwords no secret stuff..Just look at them,there in the open for goodness sake.And for the record the 215/50/13 Sumo is not 8" Its 7 1/4 and thats why the rule was changed from a 7" maximum.For many cars its a perfect tire.Its also affords the lowest ride hight AKA low center of gravity.BJ34 and Cody as well as Charley York and neon 16 have expressed their opinions and are not concerned with the current tire rules and neather am I.It would be intresting to hear from the others that actually do race this class.

While on the subject of tires,before some of you get all confused about tire tread and directional designs,theres no rule on tread direction.As most of you already know,tread is only to displace water or all tires would be slick.Since we only race on dry pavement thats a moot point.I say if your worried about tires have everyone show what they have and where to get them.That way anyone can get them.But they might not work on YOUR car.Thats for the crew chief to decide.

[NickHolt]

You're just going to have to stop confusing people with the facts, GB. Old wives tails, voodoo and half-truths are much more fun! LOL...

 

You're right. A mandated tire in the Thunderstocks - or in any bone stock class where final drive ratios are a big issue - would pretty much eliminate a whole bunch of cars. Put meaningful limits on the tires, such as no slicks, a reasonable tread width, etc, but don't mandate a tire.

 

Nick

[thumper]

Well we already have that.If anything only clairification is needed.The more things we argue about the less attractive the class becomes.Since some teams are already planning for next season I hope Michael puts this issue to rest ASAP however he decides.My opinion is you should never make last years team buy more stuff to race next year in any class.Build on what you already have.What I would really like to see is the purse build up,lots.With this type of car and lots of purse you couldnt house all the entries.

 

Imagine: a car cheap to start with,freedom to try stuff,fast cars with low operating costs that require little maintance between races allowing more family time,racing on a track that was designed for them,small fuel and tire bill. (CC Speedway was originally a midget track where people like A.J.Fojt raced) And these cars ARE fast.What we need the most is experienced racers to join us to teach us how those adjustments work.People who have raced modifieds,sport mods,late models,hobbies,dwarfs,legacys,or any other adjustable race car.Unfortunately its hard to intice these guys without real money.Its not the tracks fault but wouldnt it be fantastic if a wealthy person or company who liked racing were to step up and sponser this class and name it after themselves.Doc prooved a few years ago that money matters.It was the best money Thunders ever raced for and 24 cars were not uncommon.I will try to find an old announcement in the history part.

This might be dreaming but now we are on the right track again.Oue promoter has weathered the storm and given us the confidence that we have a secure home track.Now its time for us to show what we can do.