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Michael & Mitzi

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The only reason i have a fwds is it was cheap to race .. Iam 18 years, and have to support 6 poeple in my house hold, plus my lil 6 months old girls too . and yall tiring to make it harder on ever body out there to have a hobby. if you ford guys would sell 1 of your cars,you could built two fwds cars out of that money and still have some money left to take your family out to do somthing. but yall can do what ever to slow us down but in the end it going to be the rwds agaist the fwds it always been that way .

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Guys, some of you are going way out in left field on this topic and are only complicating things. Yes GB that means you too. Mike was not trying to make competition more equal, he was trying to give another fine tune adjustment to both front and rear wheel drive cars.

 

Personally i think it was nice of Mike to see what the class thinks but i dont think hes planning on letting the class vote on it. Race tracks can not afford to let the drivers make the rules. Front wheel drives and rear wheel drives are "apples and oranges" and they always will be, but the one with a combination of homework and race luck will prevail. I know thats a vague statement but chances are that ANYONE who would have SHOWN UP and FINISHED every race probably would have the championship trophy. Thats not taking away from the top 3 finishers but a compliment to them because that probably what they did. Show up and finish.

 

Nick, correct me if im wrong but didn't a ROMCO driver win a championship without winning a race about 5 years ago. I cant remember his name but i think i remember him getting his Championship trophy in San Antonio.

 

 

 

 

hmmm.... how is it that Tim Ej and myself could run with the fwd drives but yet none of yall can. we werent "BIG" money racers we went out and got sponsors. but even then we had to run stock suspension. i think all yall RWD guys just need to learn how to drive..... and slowing down the FWD is just going to make it harder on there equipment and cost them more.

 

Since i dont know any of the 3 drivers you mention let me ask: Where are you guys racing now?

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Dont know how my name got in this BS ..but this is why the ministocks are dead around here .this happens ever year with them all of you get on here and cry about rules ...and yes it took luck and lots of money to beat GB .. And i am not going to put my 2cents in on the rules because i dont race in this class anymore..txtwister.... I NOW RACE AT SOUTH TEXAS SPEEDWAY IN THE IMCA SPORTMOD CLASS

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Ahhh just do like yall done Scott an John Sullivan in the 80's , create a car group and vote out who you dont want to play with. Jezzzz

Stop spending money on them rwd cars sell them while you can and build a FWD , I own 2 and cost $2000

 

Richard Ford #13t

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;) Okay thunders

We're not leaving you out either...what do yo uthink of letting the fwd's have their rear camber back but allowing rwd to have weight jacks all around..not an expesive upgrade but some work will keep up with those pesky neons and maybe take a closer look at GB's back bumper.

i am not trying to get all you poeple fighting .parking fwd.s was a bad choice of words on my part did not mean it the way i said it ....sorry . read the last part here .KEEP UP WITH THOSE PESKY NEON.S AND MAYBE TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT GB.S BACK BUMPER ....

 

 

HE REALIZES HE NEEDS TO TRY AND GET THIS CLASS ALITTLE CLOSER RUNNING AND WANTS TO HELP ..NO PROBLEM . ITS NOT ALL YOU RWD.S NEED TO SELL THEM AND BUILD A FWD .NORE IS IT REVERSE... .THERE ISNT ENOUGH FWD .S TO MAKE A CLASS .AND AFTER 18 YEARS OF FWD.S IT HASNT HAPPEND YET ..THE RWD,STILL OUT NUMBER THE FWD.S SO THE POINT OF SELLING THOSE RWD.S IS MUTE .BESIDES WHO YOU GOING TO SELL THEM TO ANYWAY ... ANYWAY BACK TO MIKE ..HE IS TRYING TO EVEN THE FIELD UP .........

 

 

 

... BUT IT ISNT GOING TO HAPPEN IF YOU GIVE BOTH SOMETHING TO HELP THEM GO FASTER .. .MIKE IM SORRY .. DRIVERS IM SORRY ..

Edited by oldtimer

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ok no ones is going to always beat GB that man is just to good and has been around that track more then probably any driver that is at CC. if you give that man a few more things he can do to his car he could keep up or beat a super street i have no doubt he could. but no matter what you do to try to slow him down he is going to prove to yall how good of a driver he is and come out on top like always. GB sets the bar at where this class should be in speed. ok give the FWDs there camber back dont punish them for there cars being fast and affordable but for the RWDs give them after market shocks, springs, and weight jacks cuz the FWD drives have a advantage in handling just being that if they start getting side ways or loose they just give it more gas. i have daily driver that is FWD i know the handling difference between the FWD and RWD.

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hmmm.... how is it that Tim Ej and myself could run with the fwd drives but yet none of yall can. we werent "BIG" money racers we went out and got sponsors. but even then we had to run stock suspension. i think all yall RWD guys just need to learn how to drive..... and slowing down the FWD is just going to make it harder on there equipment and cost them more.

 

Frankie It just wasn’t sponsors that made you all go fast, It was a lot of help and Work from others that made your cars go fast. I think Texas Thunder class put a Good show on every Saturday night both Fwd and Rwd. And I haven’t seen one post From any Rwd driver that races now ask to to slow the Fwd down. I Think question was about suspension for both not slowing anyone down. And as far as drivers Learning to drive I think they all had their moments on the track but Most of them drove a good race they raced each other clean and hard.

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Frankie It just wasn’t sponsors that made you all go fast, It was a lot of help and Work from others that made your cars go fast. I think Texas Thunder class put a Good show on every Saturday night both Fwd and Rwd. And I haven’t seen one post From any Rwd driver that races now ask to to slow the Fwd down. I Think question was about suspension for both not slowing anyone down. And as far as drivers Learning to drive I think they all had their moments on the track but Most of them drove a good race they raced each other clean and hard.

 

 

Ill agree with you there it did take alot of hard work to get those cars there. as far as seeing how people work on there cars out there. this is quite a few people that could work a lil harder on taking car of there stuff and making it better. For driver that need to learn they do need to learn. thats all there is to it and the only that is going to help them learn is to be out there on the track running. during the practice session they should be trying new things like a new line or driving in a little harder or not as hard and get the exit better. im not saying they didnt drive a good race. im just saying they need to learn the track a lil better. thats a big thing that GB has over everyone there. he knows that track better then anybody at that track.

Edited by screamin20

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I think is great to have different cars petetion for things they need.This is how different cars can race competetively.I have a problem with pointing out someone elses car for penalities.If we are all going to race totally stock cars,so be it.

At GAtor the car of choice for the mini late models was a Mustang with a 2.5 engine built out of a Ranger engine.They also kept the weight close to the 2000lb minimum.Even with a good dirt setup I was mid pack.I raced hard to make the big show.Just like Pro Sedans,it prooved it did not matter what end the drive was.The fastest car was an air cooled VW.The next several were Mustangs.

As far as the weight jacks,a good chassis man can really tune a chassis with them.It does take more skill to set up a RWD but its harder to drive a FWD car fast so its a toss up.If the Fords want racing shocks and weight jacks give them to them.As far as camber,the Fords cant get it but they also dont have camber loss like the FWD cars and the air cooled cars have.The rear steer is a great tool for RWD cars at THIS track to aid in center and corner exit.Oldtimer,you pointed out how well some cars exit,with a small amount of rear steer a RWD will be faster because it does not have to be so loose to begin the turn so it can mat the gas on exit.It will be tighter because it will not have to fight a tight condition which leads to a loose exit.Add a tuned chassis with good shocks and it will be fast.I dont think anyone of the fast Fords weii say I have any horsepower advantage and the scales say no weight advantage.The biggest mistake I see the Fords guys do is overeve the engine.Not all but some use a tack to set gear ratio.They are well beyound useable RPM and make their engines overwork and loose pieces.Thats why I run tall tires.I give up some exit power for reliability.

At RGS one year I was told I couldnt race there anymore in the middle of the year.One of my friends who always complained the FWD cars had a great advantage over his Celica was available so I put him in the car.I told him protect the RF wheel above anything else.The first 5 races he whacket the RF trying to pass under cars.I asked him what about FWD cars being easy to drive?He said well there different to drive.By the end of the year he finally got decient as a driver.He never complained about FWD cars anymore.

If quitting will make Thunder racing better and more enjoyable for the fans,I will quit.I really dont believe anyone is spooked by a half blind 60 year old man.If I could afford it I would be racing a SS or Limited or even my modified.If 5th place paid the most I would always finish 5th.Rather than floundering around in the back in another type of car I race the same car and try to run up front.The challange is how do we get more cars.Anybody have any real ideas?

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B) Let's get back to the basis for this thread. The class is running pretty close now and the intention was not to favor either fwd or rwd. But to allow some adjustment for both groups and no rules changes have been made. G.B. and I break bread every time he comes up to race and the championship was deciced by being there not by winning every race you ran or it would have been a G.B. year. Allowing the adjustment will be of no use if you don't try things during practice or if you park your car on the trailer the rest of the week. Our vision is to see more of the racing ingenuity return, to be able to think, making notes, get feedback from the driver and improve the handeling. We all know that more horsepower is useless if the car won't turn.

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In other words,CC Speedway wants the 4 cyls to be able to tune the cars for the track.No other track right now does that.They eather want factory stock or/and only kids allowed in this class.I think thats a great idea.A new team can get their car tuned faster than having to wait a week between test sessions and not have to carry a bunch of different size tires to change percentages.Im all for it.

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have any of the ford guys thought about going to the 3 link suspension that is on the 99-04 mustangs? that would defintely imporve the handling of the cars and its factory ford stuff. it would allow rear steer very easily.

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B) Let's get back to the basis for this thread. The class is running pretty close now and the intention was not to favor either fwd or rwd. But to allow some adjustment for both groups and no rules changes have been made. G.B. and I break bread every time he comes up to race and the championship was deciced by being there not by winning every race you ran or it would have been a G.B. year. Allowing the adjustment will be of no use if you don't try things during practice or if you park your car on the trailer the rest of the week. Our vision is to see more of the racing ingenuity return, to be able to think, making notes, get feedback from the driver and improve the handeling. We all know that more horsepower is useless if the car won't turn.

seeing you put it that way . better than the first thread ...why the hell not .lol . gb outlaw minnies on the way ..lololololololl . just haveing some fun guys so dont go jumping all over my bones ..smile be happy... no i havent taken up thumpers juice drinking . he does that enough for all of us ..

Edited by oldtimer

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Ok i know am coming in all late and everything but here are my 2 cent's, It's racing guy's, why slow people down when everyone wants to go faster? Face it GB is the man in texas thunders at cc speedway. Now everyone knows to be the man you got to beat the man. Beat him in his own game, not cripple him more then he already is. stop crying about gb is so much faster then me. Fix it go faster, or stay in the back. Gb has been beat by rwd's and other fwd's. name a few nellie, randy, pappy, both charlies, He's done his homework and time to do your's. Look at the years before it shows everyone is getting faster look at cody he went from being a lap car to being one of the fastest cars out there intill his inspection went out ask GB he will even tell you he's fast and almost couldn't beat him. Time to go faster guy's... so mike maybe we can agree on a change or two at the meeting, give the fwd what they want and they give us rwd's what we want maybe a few aftermakert things lol. weight jack's etc. remember guy's i know gb and so do you, He's got a salvage kingdom in his back yard that's it he's not gonna go out and buy new thing's except for tire's. All am saying is i want to beat the thumper in his prime not a crippled rabbit. what's that gonna prove. yes i beat gb but he had a 300pd weight rule and took his steering wheel away and gave him some pliers and blind folded him..... wow let's make this texas thunders a fast class and have some fun

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YOU KNOW HOW THE 7. STARTED OUT YEARS AGO ..CHEAP .NO FANCY RACEN PARTS .NO WEIGHT JACKS .AFTER MARKET HEADS ..JUST SOME GOOD TIRES .AND SET UP WORK .AND WALLA .YOU HAD AN AFFORDIBLE CLASS ..IN FACT WHEN I STARTED OUT THE MOST COSTLY THING WE HAD WAS TIRE.S SOMEWHERE AROUND $60's .......AND THEY WERE REALL FAST TIRES ..TREADED .. BUT SOMEONE SPENT A FEW DALLORS MORE ON PARTS .TO GO FASTER ... THEN SPRINGS CAME INTO PLAY .AND SO FORTH ..BEFORE YOU KNEW IT .THE CLASS WAS REALLY LOW ON CAR COUNTS ..THEN WE WENT BACK AND TOOK OUT ALOT OF STUFF WE ALREADY HAD JUST TO SLOW US DOWN TO REBUILD THE CLASS ..THEN IT ALL STARTED OVER AGAIN .SOMEONE HAD SOMETHING AND EVERYONE FOLLOWED ...THEN THE CLASS LOST CAR COUNT AGAIN ..AND THEN AND THEN ... NONE WANTED TO SLOW ANYONE DOWN ..... SO IT ALL STARTS OVER AGAIN .LETS ADD SOMETHING TO MAKE US FASTER .ASLONG AS THE OTHER FASTER CARS WE ARE TRYING TO CATCH UP WITH .GETS SOMETHING TOO ...I HAVE TO LAUGH AT THAT .. AND IM ONLY LAUGHING AT HOW THIS ALL GETS ADDED AGAIN AND AGAIN ...JUST DONT MAKE SENSE ......IF YOU WANT TO KEEP IT AFFORDIBLE .. SLOW THE OTHER GUY DOWN ..IF YOU DONT MIND SPENDING THE MONEY .THEN HEY GO FOR IT .CUZ I CAN TELL YOU ONE THING IS FOR SURE .YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY WITH THIS JUST A COUPLE OF THINGS ADDED . YOU WILL STILL WANT TO GO FASTER AND FASTER .UNTILL YOU CANT AFFORD IT ANYMORE AND THE CAR COUNT WILL GET LOW AGAIN AND THIS ALL STARTS ALL OVER ...... GATTA LOVE RACEN ..I DO ..AND I SAY WE ALREADY HAVE ALOT OF THOSE THINGS THAT WILL SOON BE ADDED IN ORDER TO MAKE YOU FASTER ..GOOD THING WE WONT HAVE TO SPEND THE MONEY AGAIN TO BUILD IT UP .... IM NOT PICKING ON ANYONE HERE OR POINTING A FINGER AT ANYONE .. MAYBE I MADE SOME SENSE HERE .LOL MOST PROBABLY NOT .BET HEY WHAT THE HELL .. CYO8 .... I HAD JUST AS MUCH AND MORE FUN GOING SLOW WITH LESS STUFF ..WE RAN LOW 16.S AND HIGH 15.S IN THE 80.S .I THOUGHT THERE WAS NOWAY I WOULD PULL MY STUFF TO SLOW ME DOWN .ALONG WITH FIVE OTHER FASTER TEAMS ..WE THOUGHT THAT WOULD NOT BE ANY FUN RUNNING 16.9 TO 17.8 ... MAN WERE WE WRONG ..90 THROUGH 93 WERE THE MOST FUN YEARS IN RACEN ..CHEAPER CARS . ...SO IT ISNT HOW MUCH MONEY AND FANCY PARTS YOU HAVE .ITS GETTING THOSE CARS CLOSER TO EACH OTHER ..GIVE AND TAKE .WITH OUT SPENDING ALOT OF MONEY GETTING THEM THAT WAY ..WE DID IT . IT CAN BE DONE AGAIN ..

Edited by oldtimer

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OK, I have just one question........what is the ONE thing that the RWD cars need to consistantley run with the FWD. From what I see the motor rules are wide open and have been. I have some ideas, but I would like to hear from the drivers what you think would even them up. Read the rules and you might actually be suprised.

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OK Don,you got me courious.Is it get the car as light as possible.make it run good and reliable,get it low to the ground with good left side weights?

What does Oldtimer want?He CAN have a V8 now and run SS.

Thunderhills rules are out now and from what I see dont be surprised if someone comes down and runs up front with a production modern car that is inexpensive to build.They will have the cars we need.Todays cars.

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OK Don,you got me courious.Is it get the car as light as possible.make it run good and reliable,get it low to the ground with good left side weights?

What does Oldtimer want?He CAN have a V8 now and run SS.

Thunderhills rules are out now and from what I see dont be surprised if someone comes down and runs up front with a production modern car that is inexpensive to build.They will have the cars we need.Todays cars.

HEY THUMPER . SO YOU GOING TO BE THE FIRST ONE TO BUILD A TODAYS CAR ..YOU LIKE TO TALK ABOULT TODAYS CARS .BUT YOU DONT SEEM TOBE A PERSON WHO WANTS TO SET AN EXSAMPLE AND BUILD ONE ..THINK ABOULT IT .YOUR CAR IS AS OLD AS AND OLDER THAN THOSE MUSTANGS ..OUR.S IS OLDER .LOL .V8 WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING THAT .I DONT NEED A V8 ..THAT WONT HELP ME CATCH YOU ..WELL IM WRONG .ILL RUN OVER YOU .LOL .... . ... say do you have some older ford v6 motors at your yard ..i want one ...looking at maybe putting one together for my sons street pinto ..may soup it up alittle .. btw where can i find the thunder rules .

Edited by oldtimer

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OK Don,you got me courious.Is it get the car as light as possible.make it run good and reliable,get it low to the ground with good left side weights?

What does Oldtimer want?He CAN have a V8 now and run SS.

Thunderhills rules are out now and from what I see dont be surprised if someone comes down and runs up front with a production modern car that is inexpensive to build.They will have the cars we need.Todays cars.

GB - You have hit the nail on the head. It's not the parts, it's basic race car stuff. Stuff like:

 

1) The total weight of the car. The car has to be as light as the rules allow. Period.

2) The Center of Gravity Height of the car. It has to be as low as possible. Period.

3) The Left side weight percentage. It has to be as far left as the rules allow. Period.

4) The Front-Rear weight percentages. The closer to 50-50 the better in the little cars.

5) The Roll Center heights at the front and rear of the car. This takes a bit of suspension knowledge.

6) The distance between the Center of Gravity height and the Roll Axis - known as the "Magic Moment Arm" in my suspension course. This takes a bit more suspension knowledge.

7) The track width of the car. This has to be as wide as the rules allow. Period.

 

If these things are not 100% correct, you will lose to a car with those factors in place provided everything else is basically equal between the two cars. Spending money on exotic engine parts is simply a waste of money unless you have the above and a whole lot more in place.

 

Stuff like:

 

8) The correct springs and shocks for the car's weight and suspension motion ratios.

9) Proper suspension geometry.

10) I'm not going to go down the list of all the things we cover in the course, but you get the idea.

 

I'm not picking on anyone here. There are lots of teams that do not understand the importance of chassis and suspension in the racing equation. But I've talked with GB in person and via email and the fact is that he has a good understanding of all of the above - and a whole lot more. Can't say that about everyone.

 

Nick

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G.B. your in trouble now, cause Nick just gave away all your secrets!

omg. thats it .lol.thats one reason why i said weight jacks wont help solve the problem alone ...

Edited by oldtimer

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B) So maybe you all are saying is that we should bring the motor rules back into reality(stock only) return with stock springs ,shocks, and tires forget the weight jacks and rear camber adjustments. I'm sure that there are things I haven't mentioned.... then the "modern cars" will join us and the racing will be more fun?

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omg. thats it .lol.thats one reason why i said weight jacks wont help solve the problem alone ...

Well then, what is the answer to the original question?

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Well the fact is if Nick or someone of his knowlege was to race a Thunder with us no matter what the rules he would be the man to beat,period.Which bring us to the real problem mini stocks have been facing forever.

The racers with knowlege usually do not race 4 cyl cars.Our problem is and always has been the idea that only a V8 is a "real" race car.The best thing Thunders could have is a couple of well known V8 racers join Thunders to show what the potential really is and make it "OK" to race one.If we ever achieve creditability the series will flourish.You cant blame the racers,at most tracks 4 cyl cars are eather pure stock bombers or limited to kids only or beginners.Outside of Pro Sedans and CC Speedway your time in 4 cyls is limited.

As far as the modern car what makes them attractive is the fact that the factories have done much of what Nick is talking about PLUS the improvements in engine design has allowed a modern FI engine to be equal to the hopped up carb engines we have now.Will prooved this and Charley Custer confirmed this also.So if you were going to encourage a new team whats easier:Tell them to spend 8 grand to be competetive or to find a modern twin cam FWD or RWD car with todays improved suspension and horsepower where the biggest expense is the cage Add the improvements that Michael wants and you have a fast car,as fast as any car on street tires will be. .The factory has done most of the work already.You can find these cars at city auctions,back yards,friends ect.Hail damage,ragged interior,minor crash damage ect,just find one that will still drive.Thats the cheapest way to start.The modern car has about 150hp where the old cars were lucky to get 100.And the modern suspension is vastly improved over the outdated designs.Im not saying outlaw any cars,only look at how to build on what we have now.I have not heard anyone say how to expand this class,only how to complain.

So Don whats the trick?Why dont you race with us,you have creditability.

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