...and then there were two

[jracer98]

We are working on Jumbo's ex dirt car to get it legal for him to try THR now that Wichita Falls has closed down. He is in the car and the car is all the way up on the 2 post lift. His statement came "floating" down as I was repositioning the required added ballast in the chassis...

 

'You know, if I would have had to do all this to just try pavement at WF, I probably would have just stayed on dirt.'

 

We talked about the budget for a dirt modified to "just try" a pavement race at THR or Houston "today". It was an eye opening discussion for me. Obviously,he had the sway bar but every thing else is a required, BUY IT RIGHT NOW expense...

 

Buy and add 300 lbs of lead

$440 tires---> no such thing as Goodyear scuffs...bought any sticker "rights" in the last two months?

Gas carb and fuel system $300 used

radio system $500 used

front sway bar assembly $100 used

$100 entry fee No entry fee at the weekly dirt track race

Buy a transponder $350 or rent at $50 per race

Increased travel/lodging expense $?

 

At the risk of agreeing with Jay Hallas (kidding), is there any real mystery as to why pavement racing is losing out? When Jumbo came by the shop for the first time and asked what it would take to try WF for a race, we said "Get you some scuffs from that pile, hang this sway bar under the front and let's get it on the scales" THAT WAS IT. Read that sentence again and then review the earlier list to "just try" Houston or THR for one race. As far as mods go, remember when the only thing required for dirt cars to run with TAMS cars was for them to be on 970's? Compare and contrast that with the above list. It's not right to just bitch without offering a possible solution. We had better get more "friendly" in attracting cars from the huge existing dirt car count...there' only 2 tracks left...tick tock, baby!

 

Got to get back to work. JMO

 

Jay

[poorboy]

If everyone remembers back when dirt cars could run the 970 in TAMS they had a full feild. Switching to American racers with no alternative for dirt cars was what killed the car count.

[abrungot]

Hummm what comes first more cars or lower prices??

 

maybe its the drivers working together to help the tracks?

 

Maybe its common rules...

 

Maybe its Advertising...

 

Maybe its Promoting...

 

Maybe its Sponsors....

 

Maybe its a new bred of Fans...

 

Maybe its a new bred of classes.. (twisters at Texas Thunder are showing with 39 cars now..)

 

Reguardless its all related to Money... its going to take more than the love of the sport to keep it going...

[landlord]

No maybes,It is all of the above!!!!

[Mary Ann Naumann]

 

Sincerely,

Mary Ann

[jracer98]

If everyone remembers back when dirt cars could run the 970 in TAMS they had a full feild. Switching to American racers with no alternative for dirt cars was what killed the car count.

Agreed...and what about the "gas only" rule? You might as well dig a moat around the paved tracks as far as existing dirt mods are concerned.

 

Jay

[rebelracewriter]

At the risk of agreeing with Jay Hallas

 

[jracer98]

 

Jay

[Sarge]

I have said it in the past, but I will say it again.

 

Why can't you run I. M. C. A. Modifieds on pavement? The rules are already there. There is a national sanctioning body already in place. There are a TON of I. M. C. A. Modifieds in the state of Texas.

 

Why not? All I ever hear from the pavement side is why it won't work, can't work, and is only for dirt.

 

Well YOU are WRONG. I. M. C. A. rules are for dirt and asphalt. No changes necessary. You can take the same car and run it on either surface, with NO CHANGES.

 

But, all y'all say it won't work, can't work.

 

And you wonder why asphalt racing is suffering in Texas. No need to build a moat, its already there. You could have a built in base of racers, but you ignore them. And as you can see, the damage is done, and sadly, asphalt racing in Texas is almost done as well.

 

At the end of this month there is a race at a place called "The Dirt Track" at Texas Motor Speedway. They will have more cars in one class, than the entire field of the Stock Car Spectacular added together. But it won't work, can't work, bla, bla bla bla.

 

I will be watching HUGE fields of cars compete that night, cars that could also be competing on asphalt as well as on dirt.

 

Getting tired of beating a dead horse. But, ya know, I am a stubbern son of a B....

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

[Lucky161]

I have said it in the past, but I will say it again.

 

Why can't you run I. M. C. A. Modifieds on pavement? The rules are already there. There is a national sanctioning body already in place. There are a TON of I. M. C. A. Modifieds in the state of Texas.

 

Why not? All I ever hear from the pavement side is why it won't work, can't work, and is only for dirt.

 

Well YOU are WRONG. I. M. C. A. rules are for dirt and asphalt. No changes necessary. You can take the same car and run it on either surface, with NO CHANGES.

 

But, all y'all say it won't work, can't work.

 

And you wonder why asphalt racing is suffering in Texas. No need to build a moat, its already there. You could have a built in base of racers, but you ignore them. And as you can see, the damage is done, and sadly, asphalt racing in Texas is almost done as well.

 

At the end of this month there is a race at a place called "The Dirt Track" at Texas Motor Speedway. They will have more cars in one class, than the entire field of the Stock Car Spectacular added together. But it won't work, can't work, bla, bla bla bla.

 

I will be watching HUGE fields of cars compete that night, cars that could also be competing on asphalt as well as on dirt.

 

Getting tired of beating a dead horse. But, ya know, I am a stubbern son of a B....

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

 

I agree. If my memory is correct, originally there were 2 tires for IMCA. One for dirt and one for pavement or a hard one and a soft one. Later they found out that the hard (pavement) tire was actually suitable on dirt too, so they went to just one tire, the hard one.

Legends run on dirt and pavement. Dwarf cars run on dirt and pavement. ARCA cars run on dirt and pavement, as do USAC Silver Crown cars.

That said, IMCA modifieds are not my favorites. I just don't think modified are all that great looking. But looks are relative too and when you can get 10-20 cars in one class and 40 or more in another, usually that bigger class starts looking a lot better.

[rebelracewriter]

I can see exactly where both Jay and Mary Ann are coming from......as to the financial aspect of this.

 

As Jay pointed out at one time dirt cars could run TAMS, with a new set of tires and changing the front sway bar.....to be competitive. Remember the Big Dog race at THR, several of the top dirt guys showed up, Wayne Brooks, Henry Witt, Lawrence, one of the Killingsworth brothers, are a few off the top of my head.

 

So what happened? Hard to say, sometimes racers can be their own worst enemy, sometimes the promoters shouldn't listen to the racers "wants." I don't what was involved with the rules changes that turned into the high-dollar, specialty built pavement cars we have now.

 

It's admirable and a great idea to invite other tracks cars to race, but if it's a financial onus, the majority aren't going to spend a lot to "maybe" be competitive and get mid pack payout. I know many of the dirt tracks have a one race grace period for newbies with minor infractions.(define minor?LOL) But at least guys, mainly in your stock classes can give it a try without spending a bunch on changes. I guess we could ask Mr. Tschoerner how much he spent to race on dirt @ TTS. I know I've talked to a few guys that have run/were interested in trying pavement, but to a man agree it's too expensive to make all the changes with the current pay structure.

 

So what do we do to change things? Wish I had the panacea for that one. Would a spin off Mod series for dirt cars exclusively work?(ummmm, IMCA---he said, ducking for cover) That way they could run their existing stuff and not be at a performance disadvantage. Perhaps, though right now would not be a good time to even give this a try. The month of Sept. has most tracks ending points seasons, then you have the Lone Star Nationals the last weekend. October has a big money race every weekend and even the dirt tracks are bumping heads for dates these days. November....iffy weather, and USMTS shows in Beaumont, Corpus and Houston(that bleeds into December), plus Modified Nationals in McAllen the same weekend(at this time, possible date change here).

 

Certainly a bigger payout might draw some dirt cars or out-of-state pavement cars, but if it's not financially possible for the tracks, what track is going to be able the risk no new cars showing up and getting the 10 or so regulars only?

 

The problem in a nut shell.......specialty classes(not just mods) are pricing themselves out of racing. Not only in Texas, but I've seen it all in other places over the years. Drivers want to go faster and spend more money to do so and it gets to the point of losing money even if you win the race. Tracks can't afford to raise purses and be able to stay in business.

 

Now I expect TQ to get on here and say advertise/promote.......I say "bunk!" Tracks do that now with limited results, that I have seen. I heard HMP was packed on FREE admission night.....but how often can a track take that kind of a financial hit?

 

Somehow, someway we have to get back our roots, so to speak, and make racing affordable for both the racers and tracks. It's the only real concrete answer right now, other than stock class only racing. As I said, I don't know how to achieve this goal....if I did I be bottling and selling it all over the place.

 

Ok, I guess I'm done with the "sermon from the mount."

 

I see my buddy Sarge beat me to the punch on some of this. LMAO You go Sarge!!!

[hray]

Want dirt cars to be able to run on THR? Put dirt on it and make probably the best dirt track in So. TX.

[thumper]

Well I know several modified owners and drivers that tried to run with TAMS and gave up because of the tire deal.A hi powered dirt mod on IMCA tires CANNOT run with a lowered power asphalt mod on SLICKS.The problem was and always is RULES THAT PROTECT A GROUP OF PEOPLE.The tire rule was to protect the 2BBL cars by having a great tire advantage.It worked too well.Combine that with all the dirt big money races and the dirt mods dont need to go asphalt.

We have had the same kind of thing in 4 cyl racing.The rules always evolve bachwards to favor the overpriced and unrealibale Fords so much that the car of tomorrow has never been given a real chance to appear.The smaller FWD twin cam injected car is what is being sold for the last 10-15 years but the majority of minnies are the dinosaur cars.Across the US only a select few tracks see the advantage of the new breed,everywhere else the 4 cyls are fadeing or gone already.

Rules that "protect"a certan group of cars are the biggest hendrence to racing in general.Most dirt tracks know this and thats why they do so much better.

[jracer98]

Want dirt cars to be able to run on THR? Put dirt on it and make probably the best dirt track in So. TX.

 

...and then there would be one !

 

Jay

[poorboy]

Actually the high dirt modifieds were allowed to run the Hoosier 970 nand they were competitive. The IMCA tire was not though. And HRAY I don't think anyone wants to see a bunch of dirt cars at THR. But it would be nice to see a full feild of modifieds even if some of them were dirt cars.

[jracer98]

Well I know several modified owners and drivers that tried to run with TAMS and gave up because of the tire deal.A hi powered dirt mod on IMCA tires CANNOT run with a lowered power asphalt mod on SLICKS.The problem was and always is RULES THAT PROTECT A GROUP OF PEOPLE.The tire rule was to protect the 2BBL cars by having a great tire advantage.It worked too well.Combine that with all the dirt big money races and the dirt mods dont need to go asphalt.

We have had the same kind of thing in 4 cyl racing.The rules always evolve bachwards to favor the overpriced and unrealibale Fords so much that the car of tomorrow has never been given a real chance to appear.The smaller FWD twin cam injected car is what is being sold for the last 10-15 years but the majority of minnies are the dinosaur cars.Across the US only a select few tracks see the advantage of the new breed,everywhere else the 4 cyls are fadeing or gone already.

Rules that "protect"a certan group of cars are the biggest hendrence to racing in general.Most dirt tracks know this and thats why they do so much better.

 

 

Hmmmm...some interesting thoughts here but the 970 is a legitimate pavement tire. I believe the trucks ran them in their heyday and the THR Super Stocks still do. The "TAMS dirt car" did not have to run IMCA tires.

 

Taking a thought from your post and flipping it in a silly but (hopefully) illustrative way----> I wouldn't have to spend hardly any money to enter my pavement mod in a $10,000 to win dirt race...in fact, wouldn't it just be 4 used IMCA tires and an entry fee ? A dirt car would have to spend $1000 plus in my earlier example to run the "regular" Saturday pavement show for a couple of C's to win.

 

People can debate this all they want but the numbers of cars and tracks of each type of racing don't lie.

 

Jay

[jracer98]

"Why can't you run I. M. C. A. Modifieds on pavement? The rules are already there. There is a national sanctioning body already in place. There are a TON of I. M. C. A. Modifieds in the state of Texas." AND

"I. M. C. A. rules are for dirt and asphalt. No changes necessary. You can take the same car and run it on either surface, with NO CHANGES."

 

--->Marc and I were asked for an opinion on mods if a track was to start from scratch. I said I'd try IMCA mods with NO "pavement" adaptations except springs and shocks (spec shocks only 2 WB 76's and 2 WB 94's The track has a set of it's own to swap with you when you win.)

 

I realize that such a thing would invalidate my own car but, the way it's going, pavement mods are a lot like a gallon of milk, they have a "date" on them and they are going bad...

Said another way, it's about to be invalid anyway.

 

 

 

 

"Why not? All I ever hear from the pavement side is why it won't work, can't work, and is only for dirt."

 

----->On the other hand, didn't Corpus try this and it was a disappointment? The light bulb wasn't invented on the first try either so who knows? I would like to hear OP's thoughts on this.

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Sarge

 

Jay

[HiTech]

Well I know several modified owners and drivers that tried to run with TAMS and gave up because of the tire deal.A hi powered dirt mod on IMCA tires CANNOT run with a lowered power asphalt mod on SLICKS.The problem was and always is RULES THAT PROTECT A GROUP OF PEOPLE.The tire rule was to protect the 2BBL cars by having a great tire advantage.It worked too well.Combine that with all the dirt big money races and the dirt mods dont need to go asphalt.

We have had the same kind of thing in 4 cyl racing.The rules always evolve bachwards to favor the overpriced and unrealibale Fords so much that the car of tomorrow has never been given a real chance to appear.The smaller FWD twin cam injected car is what is being sold for the last 10-15 years but the majority of minnies are the dinosaur cars.Across the US only a select few tracks see the advantage of the new breed,everywhere else the 4 cyls are fadeing or gone already.

Rules that "protect"a certan group of cars are the biggest hendrence to racing in general.Most dirt tracks know this and thats why they do so much better.

over priced unrealiable fords ...lol ..thats a good one ....they got overpriced when the fwd came along..... there are still more minnies running today then some older classes .so they are not dead ...dieing maybe ..you have fwd and it gets on throught the turns faster than a RWD ...YOU KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT .. so 17 years ago it got to the point that in order just to stay up with fwd and a few others . we had to spend on power ..hence the problems with over priced parts and cars ..now you race a cheap car persay ..your choice .and done well with it ... but you were part of the problem with the overpriced ... you dont want any penalties put on you to slow you down ..so when that dont happen .wala the overprice comes in the picture ...... in fact your motor isnt cheap either .. and i know it aint stock .lol its a constant battle to even thease cars out ..but for over 30 years its been close ..tps has slowed the fords down in one way or another .. do we like it ..no .but i understand tps has to try and keep it close ..then again if we could compete with stock motors you can bet we would have them ..so my point is dont blaime this on overpriced fords . i will say all of us were the problem .... ... will it change no ... will it ever be even no ..and i dont care if you throw every rwd out and run all fwds with all the new stuff ... one brand of cars will have the power advantage over another ..and wala ..this all starts over again ..unless you go with what allison's have done ... no matter what body you put on them ..they are all the same under them ... i didnt forget the bugs ,,fords came along and over powered them even as they were stock ..so in 90 and 91 we the cc class let the bugs have some parts to compete... jaime did well with that set up ..so did ralph ... he won a championship in 90 with a bug ..against alot of fords ..and chevy and olds ..another thing gb ..if we the dinasaurs.. meaning you too .would just stop throw away what we have quit raceing ,, then there will be no more minnies ..so in order the fix that problem ..go build a feul injected what ever you want car ...see what it would cost just to get your hands on one . and get this new bread going ...right now minnies are kinda stuck with the old .. not enough new drivers comeing in who can afford to start a new class of minnies ..

[rebelracewriter]

Com'on now guys, let's not throw the baby out with the dirty bath water!!

[jumbo]

WOW! I'm amazed something I said was food for thought.

[HiTech]

Com'on now guys, let's not throw the baby out with the dirty bath water!!

lol .....aphault has a problem ..how its going to get fixed ..hummm .. i remember when some dirt tracks could not stay open ..atliest here in cc ..and now we have one and i will admit so far owen has it going .. the only thing that bothers me is when poeple say close it the asphaults down ..and put dirt on them ..that to me isnt right .but tmo .... i dont ever say add asphault to a dirt track ..and i dont knock the dirt tracks that are running ..

[97car]

JRACER98 welcome to south Texas racing, it has been that way for years,every track wanting their own tire rule, obsoleting chassis, bodies,engines etc. even though the car can still run good. I don't know how the current tracks do their payouts now, but the pay by check at the next race does not set well with the dirt crowd that is used to getting payed after the races in cash, it is called having a paycard and signing for what you got payed. Entry fees for every so called big race has not helped especially when you factor in the tire rule issue and that if you place any lower then 2nd or 3rd you are in the hole in pit passes and gas alone.

[neon14]

For sale 98 dodge neon modern fuel injected 4 cylinder car, comes with front sway bar, car has won over 15 feature events on dirt and asphalt in the last 3 years. Turn key, ready to race, 3000 bucks. Neon Will

[HiTech]

For sale 98 dodge neon modern fuel injected 4 cylinder car, comes with front sway bar, car has won over 15 feature events on dirt and asphalt in the last 3 years. Turn key, ready to race, 3000 bucks. Neon Will

you in the wrong section .will ... lol .. just think if the fords did not have any fancy motor parts ..you and thumper would have won every race ..

[Sarge]

Marc and I were asked for an opinion on mods if a track was to start from scratch. I said I'd try IMCA mods with NO "pavement" adaptations except springs and shocks (spec shocks only 2 WB 76's and 2 WB 94's The track has a set of it's own to swap with you when you win.)

 

But Jay,

 

Why change a thing. Run the I. M. C. A. Modifieds. They have rules already in place, and there are a ton of them, already.

 

Quit trying to reinvent the wheel. Go with what the majority already have. If it works, great, pavement racing is the better for it. If it doesn't, you don't have to spend a dime to go race dirt.

 

I. M. C. A. sanctions both dirt and asphalt tracks. Granted, right now there is only one sanctioned asphalt track, but you know what? The rules are identical, no change this, change that. An I. M. C. A. Modified is an I. M. C. A. Modified. If it is legal in Texas, it will be legal in Iowa, New York, California, and the other 23 states that have I. M. C. A. sanctioned tracks, on dirt or pavement.

 

Heck, last weekend there were 87 I. M. C. A. Southern SportMods at Heart of Texas Speedway in Waco for the I. M. C. A. Southern SportMod Nationals. There were cars from Louisiana, New Mexio, Oklahoma, and one brave soul all the way from Arizona. Know why they came? They knew they were legal, the cars they were racing were legal, and they knew exactly how the program was going to be run. Wouldn't that be nice, to be able to go to Arizona and know exactly how the program is going to be ran, and that you are on a level playing field with the other cars?

 

Love em, or hate em, but I. M. C. A. is the 800 pound gorilla of stock car racing. NASCAR ain't shinola, compared to I. M. C. A. on a grass roots level. Over 380 I. M. C. A. Modifieds showed up this week in Boone, Ia, to try for one of thirty three starting spots, in a race that only pays $2000 to win.

 

Again, quit trying to reinvent the wheel. There is already an answer for those of you that want to race a modified, no matter which surface it is. Quit fighting it, and join the majority of racers that run modifieds. I really think you would be glad you did. After all, realistically, what are your options? Modifieds make horrible bass boats.

 

My two cents, earned the hard way,

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom